Pilot knowledge for Controllers

Ppragman, it actually used to be much easier for pilots to hang out in the tower cab or TRACON, or controllers to tag along in the cockpit. In fact, it was encouraged in the past.

Since 9/11, it has pretty much gone away.
 
Mike, I've only had 1 IFE (2 if I had someone to declare it to). But if I deem something serious enough to call it an emergency, I'll do what I need to get on the ground and deal with the consequences later.

If given a hold, "unable" would probably be the only thing you would hear from me. On the other hand, is one rough engine in a 421 really an IFE?

Let me give you a story where "unable" just won't work in that situation and you may just have to play ball. Again, the LAST thing you want to do is become a traffic hazard to other traffic, whether or not you're an emergency, and if ATC is telling you that they need time to clear people or work other traffic away in order to get you down, and you just decide to "unable" it and go barrelling down yourself and end up midair-ing someone; then thats inexcusable.

In my situation in Korea, I had a failure of one side of my electrical system while IMC, a definite emergency in that airplane. 80 miles from base, I declare an IFE with the Korean center, then am handed to the approach controller who wants to know the nature of my emergency in more detail. I let him know what I've got, and the potential for further electrical problems, and knowing the WX being ~150-200' and 1/2 mile, the only useable approach was the PAR into the prime base. I'm pretty much expecting to be THE priority due to both my aircraft type as well as my emergency that could very well turn extremely serious. Expecting to get automatically vectored in, I'm instead given a hold, as there are 23 other fighters trying to get in, and I'm the #7 IFE in progress, the other ones being an F-16 with a lightning strike that has limited electrics who's being led in by his wingman through the WX, 4 others (2 x F-4s, and 2 x F-5s) who are emergency fuel or nearing it, and one other with a hydraulics malfunction. So now my emergency is kind of second rate....I mean, I still have electrics unlike the F-16....though they're not working that good and could go out at any time, but I'm not about to flame out any minute either like the two F-4s, and the two F-5s. So, with all that, there was NO way I could say "unable", as my problems were now minor in comparison with the others, even if I was in the most expensive of all the aircraft almost combined. So, I entered a hold for other emergency traffic to recover, until I could be given vectors to the GCA final controller for my own recovery.

An extreme example, yes, but still one that shows that while you may have used the "E word", it might not always mean that traffic INSTANTLY stops and is cleared for you, and the controllers workload and attention can just automatically go to you. As I said, you've now just unintentionally become a royal pain in the ass to ATC, especially when there's a combo of high traffic, low WX, and/or other emergencies in progress.

But I think it's equally bad when during normal or say "urgency" situations arise, everyone expects to be treated like the second coming with no appreciation of the fact that the sky is full of hurtling aluminum. .

This is the main point I'm trying to make. The most important thing is both sides keeping the other informed of whats going on and why.
 
I agree mike, multiple emergencies is not that common, and obviously, priorities change. Mine was actually an electrical one, IMC, over DCA. They were having none of that after 9/11, and sent us back to Dover, DE AFB.

But you gotta do what you gotta do sometimes. And it is usually going to be when the crap hits the fan for everyone. How much the airplane cost means zero to me - souls aboard is the only number I will yield to then.
 
But you gotta do what you gotta do sometimes. And it is usually going to be when the crap hits the fan for everyone. How much the airplane cost means zero to me - souls aboard is the only number I will yield to then.

You missed my point I was making on the cost thing (or I was unclear most likely)..........I was in an airplane that was (at the time) considered a national asset and not one which one wouldn't give priority to in an emergency. We'd always been given full priority for anything emergency-wise when we needed is when we were CONUS, when safely possible, due to that importance of the airframe. But even that didn't matter when there were those with problems worse than mine, and that's fine. Heck, they were lower and closer than I was anyway, so to me they had the right of way anyway, in terms of what right of way there'd be for multiple planes with emergencies. :) Plus, we always had the option to turn west over the water and punch out, but even then thats something you want to avoid if at all possible, as it turns one emergency into a completely new one, with still low chances for survival. Punching out over land while in IMC is something you want to avoid too if at all possible, with not knowing where your plane is going to end up. So for me and those kinds of aircraft, its a different mindset and considerations than what the average civilian deals with.

The basic thing I want to get across to people is that when you have an emergency, just know that how fast "priority" occurs may indeed depend on what ATC is able to do with the other aluminum in the sky, and how quickly they can do it, and as you say (which I agree with wholehartedly), sometimes you indeed gotta do what you gotta do.
 
Heard a story of a guy I know who was on an emergency bingo profile from USS boat a while back. Single engine IIRC, started getting vectors from Jacksonville, told them where to stuff it, and put the needle on the nose for JAX anyway. Apparently it caused a big stir because of some SWA flight in the area. Not sure why they weren't given the priority, but it is what it is. Guy didn't get violated, but it was red-ass for all involved........something to think about.
 
Heard a story of a guy I know who was on an emergency bingo profile from USS boat a while back. Single engine IIRC, started getting vectors from Jacksonville, told them where to stuff it, and put the needle on the nose for JAX anyway. Apparently it caused a big stir because of some SWA flight in the area. Not sure why they weren't given the priority, but it is what it is. Guy didn't get violated, but it was red-ass for all involved........something to think about.

Without knowing the whole story, it sounds at first glance that the guy on the bingo did what he had to do, but there was obviously a breakdown in comms somewhere of 1. His communicating the urgency of his emergency, and 2. ATCs giving (or not) the reason(s) for any undue delay; both of which could've alleviated this whole situation seemingly.
 
Without knowing the whole story, it sounds at first glance that the guy on the bingo did what he had to do, but there was obviously a breakdown in comms somewhere of 1. His communicating the urgency of his emergency, and 2. ATCs giving (or not) the reason(s) for any undue delay; both of which could've alleviated this whole situation seemingly.

Yeah obviously something was lost in translation somewhere. I'd guess maybe approach didn't get the memo in the handoff with center, but he should have been squawking 7700 as well so who knows (as well as flying a very non-traditional profile for non RVSM jets)
 
I like all the examples / suggestions. The trend Ive been noticing is that people with at least a little flight background are more efficient controllers because of this knowledge. While we have a great safety record at the center and I by no means want to force any controller into becoming a pilot, this course with background knowledge and actual real life examples will be beneficial.

There is a program at Minneapolis Center for pilots to come and "hang out" at the center. Another controller and myself set that up. It includes some classroom (currently on hypoxia as we have seen a rise in those incidents in the last couple years due to increased capabilities in smaller aircraft with less pilot training involved), and a tour of traffic management, flight data, center weather, and then sitting with a controller working traffic for about 40 minutes. Its ended with a Q and A. We've had almost 300 pilots through this year and would love to have anyone else. If youre interested PM me and I'll get you in.

Thanks again for the suggestions for controller training, they will be addressed!
 
Tours are available at my facility as well, anyone interested can contact me via PM. We don't necessarily have a program set up for it just an informal thing but there are educational videos that have been prepared for prior groups. You can also plug in and listen most of the time as long as it isn't a large group and you don't distract the controller.
 
Mike, I've only had 1 IFE (2 if I had someone to declare it to). But if I deem something serious enough to call it an emergency, I'll do what I need to get on the ground and deal with the consequences later.

If given a hold, "unable" would probably be the only thing you would hear from me. On the other hand, is one rough engine in a 421 really an IFE?

Yes,

If you are out in BFE (BFE is not an airport) at night, in IMC, heavy and single pilot and it was rough enough to shut down.
 
There is a program at Minneapolis Center for pilots to come and "hang out" at the center.

That is really cool.
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From the piston side of things:
When I was flying the Baron back home in Omaha, I basically had a 50 mile-out plea for lower and "request that with the next controller" always put me in a bind. That switch to Omaha always happened at 40 miles, then I'm 35 miles out by the time Omaha allows me to come down.
Sure a Baron can get down faster, but not when following company procedure for pax comfort.
Basically the sooner you can start a non-pressurized thoroughbred like the Baron down-hill, the better. Obviously it is up to the pilot to recognize what he needs and request it, but when he does, it is because he can see he is going to get jammed up.

Piston stage cooling. (I think it is bunk, but I do it anyway because that is what company wants.) If I wasn't a piston pilot, I probably won't know anything about this, and it severely limits my ability to change speeds when arriving in the terminal area.
This also puts me in a bind when "max forward speed" is requested on approach. In pistons, most people are already doing their max forward speed, either due to stage cooling or being at maximum gear speed.
So if that is the case, and I'm already at my max forward speed or it is only going to get slower, do you want me to state that speed? I've always just acknowledged the request. Though i can see if I was a controller, I would want a hard number.
 
I fly out of Miami, quite often single pilot. I would LOVE to have a Center/Approach/Departure Controller ride right seat with me just to see the other side. Wish there was an established program for this sponsored by the FAA.
 
Very good points all around. I know where I'm at the is a huge difference in pilot specific knowledge between controllers and from what I've seen elsewhere that is basically true everywhere. I'd cringe if I heard a controller issue a simple roger to a vacuum failure but I'd have to imagine that is the extreme example. To be honest, I could see myself working a pitot failure if I was very busy and asking them to hold a speed on final. Now I know as a pilot thats, well impossible, but sometimes the pilot hat is stowed away and I'm in 100% ATC mode. Additionally not having any turbine time I'm wholly ignorant on that aspect of flying, so I would like that spelled out for me. Nor do I have significant experience in icing. One thing this thread has reminded me of is the geared engine. I've never flown one, I knew they were quirky, but as a controller I'd never put two and two together on them so I'm thankful that the topic was mentioned. We all have limitations obviously. On the other hand the majority of non medical emergencies I work the description is "we have an indicator light on." and nothing more. I've had jets spiraling out of the flight levels declaring with only that response and my natural tendency is get em on the ground ASAP. Well sometimes it turns out, when that indicator is on (specifically that vague use of the word) descent is limited to 500 fmp and I don't know about it until they are 5,000 AGL and turned onto an otherwise nice long easy final which is now a profile they can't manage. All of a sudden all that traffic that was going behind you, should have gone in front while you kept coming down and I'm in a position that I can't give you the best service because I'm too busy working on plan Z.

For some of the other prop relates issues. As for my facility, its rare for me to see any twin piston aside from a C402 that I need to mix in with a string of traffic. I know what a C402, C421 and PA31 can do on final with a competent pilot giving their all. I honestly don't know what a Baron will do. Its never come up. I typically say give me your best speed as long as practical, but a hard number would be a huge help. 150/160/170 is all gee whiz stuff inside of a ten mile final, but if you're 35 out, it makes a big difference. That and really, anyone who refuses to coordinate lower ten miles out from the AOA. Thats a lazy controller unless they're overwhelmed.

I really wish they'd allow controllers in the jumpseat again. It alludes to what Boris said about second hand and piece-mealing how things really work. Having said that, anyone in the Mid West looking for an ATC facility tour I might be able to help out on that end at least.
 
Great idea.

Not sure how detail oriented you are going to get but you might want to consider adding a section on a dispatchers responsibilities and how it relates to ATC.
 
I think it is a good idea for controllers to be familiar with the flying side of the house, and I know quite a few have significant GA (or other) time as well. That all being said, I really don't expect a controller to understand the details and ramifications of any particular emergency I might face. While I may need to know a whole lot of things about say, losing an engine, on the flipside, I think it is my responsibility as PIC/aircraft commander to inform them of what I need, and what they can expect from me, and I will do so in the most general terms I can. Ie, for this example, hey I'm single engine, I need direct routing to the field (or block altitudes and holding to sort things out), I'll be half standard rate in the GCA box, and I need to take an approach end arrestment at kxxx. 1 soul on board, +xx minutes of fuel. Beyond that, and I think I am just making noise that doesn't really help anyone, and in an emergency, there is no room for extraneous comms.....esp if ATC is busy getting folks out of my way, and coordinating with approach/tower at the same time.
 
I'm a controller with my Commercial SEL. I'd really love to see things from a jumpseat perspective in a lot of aircraft. Unfortunately the kinks still aren't worked out from Sep 11. Pilots can take tours of ATC facilities though. Something simple to remember is that center controllers are much more restricted in separation options than approach controls, even when center is providing approach services.

Controllers are required when an emergency is declared to get your Callsign (easy), Nature of emergency, and pilot desires. These 3 things are required no matter what. Then there is a long list of items that are judgment calls to solicit. Here's where the big problem comes in. When an emergency is declared, tapes will be pulled on the controller for the duration of the emergency. So controllers feel pressured to get all information or face possible consequences if they miss something. Just the other day a regional jet had partial power in one engine.. ATC declared an emergency for them. It was another center that declared the emergency. I receive a call from the center stating the issue, that the CRJ needed no special handling, and that there were XX souls on board and something else I forgot. I wasn't working the radar position at the time, but I told my radar controller everything I was told. The CRJ checks on frequency and immediately gets the same questions... what's wrong... what do you need. A controller covering his butt. Where as it probably should have been handled differently on the check on... Roger, advice me if you need anything. (because the 3 requirements [callsign, nature, pilot desires] were already known).
 
I would like any suggestions / stories from you guys on things that you wish controllers knew / understood. Thanks!

I didn't read the entire thread so I hope I'm not redundant. A few off the top of my head:

1000' step climbs/descents given a few minutes apart are very frustrating. Large speed reductions and configuration changes create a higher workload for the crew.
Many of us are completing configuration changes around 400' agl.....right about the time ATC is saying "contact dept."
The FL20s are extremely wasteful altitudes for jets, please leave us at cruise altitude as long as possible.

Citation X specific:
Slowing to .78 does not "save gas." An airliner slowing from .80 to .75 isn't a big difference. Slowing from .91 to .78 is a HUGE difference.
Most corp jets can easily get to FL410 in <:20 mins. Quicker climbs can get them above and out of the way of the airline traffic quicker and allow us to burn less fuel.
 
I didn't read the entire thread so I hope I'm not redundant. A few off the top of my head:

1000' step climbs/descents given a few minutes apart are very frustrating. Large speed reductions and configuration changes create a higher workload for the crew.
Many of us are completing configuration changes around 400' agl.....right about the time ATC is saying "contact dept."
The FL20s are extremely wasteful altitudes for jets, please leave us at cruise altitude as long as possible.

Citation X specific:
Slowing to .78 does not "save gas." An airliner slowing from .80 to .75 isn't a big difference. Slowing from .91 to .78 is a HUGE difference.
Most corp jets can easily get to FL410 in <:20 mins. Quicker climbs can get them above and out of the way of the airline traffic quicker and allow us to burn less fuel.

Most of the descents in the FL2xx range are generally to meet LOAs with other facilities. I agree, some of them are absolutely absurd. For instance, we have to have CVG area traffic AOB FL290 at the ZME/ZID boundary, which is about 170 miles from CVG. On the flipside, ZID only has to get traffic landing MEM AOB FL340 on the same boundary, and it is about the same distance from our boundary to MEM.

If you don't mind getting turned out, we'd like to get high climbers out of the way quickly just as fast as you'd like to get at altitude. Now, that doesn't always reciprocate in the descent when you're being sequenced. I know getting slowed down like that sucks, but when there are 6-7 aircraft in front (including the inevitable short hop regional flight at FL200 and/or C5xx series) of you, there's not much choice. In some instances, it is going to take turns and speeds to get the spacing we need. Then there always seems to be the guys that when given a PD descent, dive for the deck and causes the entire sequence to compress.
 
Something for controllers to keep in mind... Us turboprop boys out there aren't always on STARS when we are coming back into our hub, in this case EWR. Before you give me an instruction... "hold as published at (in this case) LEMOR" when I am less than 2 miles from the fix at 240knts, look at my flight plan and see how I am filed. If I am not on an arrival I am gonna pull out my enroute chart and see that there is no hold there, have to ask you what you want us to do and why and by that time, even if I slowed, be a mile or two past the fix, or holding on the airway, either of which could get me busted.
 
If you don't mind getting turned out, we'd like to get high climbers out of the way quickly just as fast as you'd like to get at altitude.

I was under the impression that the slower a/c was supposed to be turned.(?) Generally, I will gladly take a turn to get to altitude quicker. As long as it isn't 80 degrees opposite of the turn on course (which it usually is).

Most of the descents in the FL2xx range are generally to meet LOAs with other facilities.
The LOAs are exactly the problem. Lets face it, LOAs are set up to look good on paper, satisfy capacity statistics, and help a controller's work flow easier. Unfortunately, it is extremely wasteful in terms of time, fuel, and money, which are ironically the reasons people fly in the first place.

In my opinion, if LOAs are to exist, they need to first take into account the efficient operation of the aircraft, then figure out how to make it easy on the controllers (Nothing personal). Another problem is not altering "patterns" to match the amount of traffic. When the area is saturated it is understandable. But when it is 2am and there is no other traffic, some controllers still follow the playbook like it is saturated.
 
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