I am a controller working at an ARTCC (center) and I am putting together some training to help nonpilot controllers (most controllers) understand some basics of aviation. Im aware of an aircraft that said they just had a vacuum system failure and the controller just answered "roger" and had no idea what that meant. Situations like this shouldnt happen. I would like any suggestions / stories from you guys on things that you wish controllers knew / understood. Thanks!
Pilot knowledge for Controllers
- Thread starter McNevin
- Start date
BajtheJino
I'm looking at you.
I think what you're doing is a great idea.
That being said, I don't/wouldn't blame a controller for not understanding what a vacuum failure meant. Thats a pilots responsibility to clearly communicate any problems they may be having and what help they expect from the other end. I wouldn't know what it might mean for me if some piece of equipment failed on your end. Good stuff though. I wish more pilots got to visit towers and en route facilities to see whats being done to keep us safe.
That being said, I don't/wouldn't blame a controller for not understanding what a vacuum failure meant. Thats a pilots responsibility to clearly communicate any problems they may be having and what help they expect from the other end. I wouldn't know what it might mean for me if some piece of equipment failed on your end. Good stuff though. I wish more pilots got to visit towers and en route facilities to see whats being done to keep us safe.
Alchemy
Well-Known Member
First off, I have a lot of respect for all controllers and don't envy you a bit. It's not a job that I think I'd be able to do. The vast majority of my experiences with ATC, and especially ARTCC have been very positive. With that said, here we go.....
1. I know this doesn't really apply to ARTCC but: Don't talk to an airplane while it's in the takeoff/landing phase below 1000 AGL, especially jets/turboprops, unless absolutely necessary. This is a very busy time in these airplanes. I'm particularly talking about frequency changes after takeoff....if you can put that off until the airplane has been in the air for a minute after takeoff, I think we'd really appreciate it. Of course if it's something critical, like "go around", "TURN IMMEDIATELY TO AVOID TRAFFIC" or "cancel takeoff clearance", please don't hold back!
2. Most airplanes can EITHER slow down OR go down, and EITHER speed up OR climb faster. Asking us to do both at the same time often just isn't possible, especially when a crossing restriction is involved. For example, let's say I'm cruising at FL370 and I'm given a clearance to cross a fix 100 NM ahead at 10,000. I'm not going to start my descent until about 70 NM from that fix, assuming zero wind, in the interest of fuel efficiency and best speed. If I get a restriction of "reduce speed to 250" as I pass through FL300, I'm not going to be able to make that crossing restriction. This is because I have to decrease my rate of descent in order to decrease my airspeed.
3. Don't get mad at us when you think we "missed a call". You probably said the call sign wrong. I know it sounds harsh, but I've experienced a lot of controllers getting "huffy" lately when they miss my call sign by a number or two and no one answers. When your company has up to 200 airplanes in the air at any one time, you tend not to respond unless the call sign is correct. I have no problem with the mistake being made, and the airlines share a lot of blame for making the flight numbers so similar, it's just the attitude of "AIRLINE XXXX, HOW DO YOU HEAR THIS TRANSMITTER???!?!?!?" on only the second attempt that gets old. If no one answers your call, look at the strip again to make sure you have the call sign correct. If after 3 or 4 calls for the correct call sign no one answers, then, ok, the attitude is warranted. With that said I often have to call a facility 3 or 4 times before I get an answer and manage not to get upset about it. Granted, check-ins are usually not time sensitive in nature.
4. Ride reports are ALWAYS appreciated by those of us hauling passengers.
5. If you don't allow me to deviate around a thunderstorm or towering cumulus, I may have to do it anyway, so be ready.
6. Shortcuts are almost always appreciated
7. If you need me to do something specific, just say so, don't assume that we'll operate that way.
8. Limit transmissions to no more than 3 instructions if possible. Anything more than that and I need an "advise when ready to copy" warning.
9. I'll always go out of my way to help ATC but if you're nice and cheerful, I think you'll get better results.
That's all I can think of for now. Just being friendly goes a long way.
1. I know this doesn't really apply to ARTCC but: Don't talk to an airplane while it's in the takeoff/landing phase below 1000 AGL, especially jets/turboprops, unless absolutely necessary. This is a very busy time in these airplanes. I'm particularly talking about frequency changes after takeoff....if you can put that off until the airplane has been in the air for a minute after takeoff, I think we'd really appreciate it. Of course if it's something critical, like "go around", "TURN IMMEDIATELY TO AVOID TRAFFIC" or "cancel takeoff clearance", please don't hold back!
2. Most airplanes can EITHER slow down OR go down, and EITHER speed up OR climb faster. Asking us to do both at the same time often just isn't possible, especially when a crossing restriction is involved. For example, let's say I'm cruising at FL370 and I'm given a clearance to cross a fix 100 NM ahead at 10,000. I'm not going to start my descent until about 70 NM from that fix, assuming zero wind, in the interest of fuel efficiency and best speed. If I get a restriction of "reduce speed to 250" as I pass through FL300, I'm not going to be able to make that crossing restriction. This is because I have to decrease my rate of descent in order to decrease my airspeed.
3. Don't get mad at us when you think we "missed a call". You probably said the call sign wrong. I know it sounds harsh, but I've experienced a lot of controllers getting "huffy" lately when they miss my call sign by a number or two and no one answers. When your company has up to 200 airplanes in the air at any one time, you tend not to respond unless the call sign is correct. I have no problem with the mistake being made, and the airlines share a lot of blame for making the flight numbers so similar, it's just the attitude of "AIRLINE XXXX, HOW DO YOU HEAR THIS TRANSMITTER???!?!?!?" on only the second attempt that gets old. If no one answers your call, look at the strip again to make sure you have the call sign correct. If after 3 or 4 calls for the correct call sign no one answers, then, ok, the attitude is warranted. With that said I often have to call a facility 3 or 4 times before I get an answer and manage not to get upset about it. Granted, check-ins are usually not time sensitive in nature.
4. Ride reports are ALWAYS appreciated by those of us hauling passengers.
5. If you don't allow me to deviate around a thunderstorm or towering cumulus, I may have to do it anyway, so be ready.
6. Shortcuts are almost always appreciated
7. If you need me to do something specific, just say so, don't assume that we'll operate that way.
8. Limit transmissions to no more than 3 instructions if possible. Anything more than that and I need an "advise when ready to copy" warning.
9. I'll always go out of my way to help ATC but if you're nice and cheerful, I think you'll get better results.
That's all I can think of for now. Just being friendly goes a long way.
boondr
Penalty Vectorer
I think that's a decent list, and I agree wholeheartedly with the friendly thing, only group I am rude to is underqualified heavy drivers ask dasleben:bandit:
z987k
Well-Known Member
Vacuum is a good idea, as is an alternator just in case someone doesn't know what that does. A brief description of the pitot/static might be a good idea to. Oh and knowing the difference between /U /A and /G.
In the small aircraft I fly, I don't care if you give me a short clearance or turn xxx at 50agl. I don't have that much going on that I can't acknowledge that. In fact please give me on course at 50 agl. It'll be two minutes before I'm 1000agl.
In the small aircraft I fly, I don't care if you give me a short clearance or turn xxx at 50agl. I don't have that much going on that I can't acknowledge that. In fact please give me on course at 50 agl. It'll be two minutes before I'm 1000agl.
pilotbry
Well-Known Member
I'm doing aerial mapping so I'm hanging out in terminal airspace a lot. I too really appreciate the job you guys do especially keeping us separated in your airspace. One thing that I can think of is that it seems like many times the controller doesn't understand why I can't see GA traffic that is 3, 4, 5 miles away. A B747 is pretty easy to see 4 or 5 miles away. Depending on conditions(sun in your face etc) a C172 at 12 o'clock can difficult to see a mile away.
Also - I think I remember the incident with the pilot reporting a vacuum failure. If I recall correctly, the pilot was in IMC and never declared an emergency or even expressed a sense of urgency to the controller. I'm not saying it's a bad idea for controllers to have some extra knowledge of flight instruments etc but it's my opinion that it is incumbent on a pilot with a vacuum failure in IMC to either declare an emergency or at least explain that they have critical flight instrument failures.
Also - I think I remember the incident with the pilot reporting a vacuum failure. If I recall correctly, the pilot was in IMC and never declared an emergency or even expressed a sense of urgency to the controller. I'm not saying it's a bad idea for controllers to have some extra knowledge of flight instruments etc but it's my opinion that it is incumbent on a pilot with a vacuum failure in IMC to either declare an emergency or at least explain that they have critical flight instrument failures.
Correct. The PIC/crew have to keep ATC apprised of what they have and what they need. It's not ATCs job to assume anything, though there are always times when ATC can do that.......but shouldn't be expected to.
First off, thanks for doing the job you guys do. It blows my mind every time to think about the stress you guys have to deal with and what it must be like to walk outside into bright sunlight after a day in the radar room. One good thing I wish controllers were more aware of is the issue with geared piston engines. I fly a Cessna 421 and do not normally have a problem with slam dunks but every once in a while I think you guys think I am a Turboprop. The on going joke is when you are flying a 421 and they slam dunk you they call you Conquest.
The issue is in back dragging the engines, or when the prop drives the engine around. This happens at high airspeeds and low power settings. This is the worst thing inside of detonation you can do to a GTSIO-520 engine because of the 2:3 gear ratio. In fact they let you know when you are doing that to them with a scarry sounding rumble through the airframe. The best I can do in descent path is not allways doable if I manage the engines correctly with some vectoring and clearances. This is a very unique airplane in this regard so ATC is just not expecting it and most do not know or assume I can use the descent profile of a Conquest or King Air. Like one of the above posters said, it's when you have to slow down to change configurations you have to level off for a little bit to get a better gradient, but this costs you making a xing restriction, glideslope or airport, it has to be an unable. But you will never know who has speed brakes either, we do not have them and I wish we did for these circumstances.
Maybe when you are doing a Golden Eagle just assume a 3-4 degree descent path and try not to set up a 5 degree or greater. I have since developed an interesting method of flying an ILS and slowing from 190 clean to 120 flaps and gear on the way down but this is un stabilized and not preferable and cannot be performed autopilot coupled if need be for me. The slam dunk ILS seems to be a cronic problem for me at one particular airport.
The issue is in back dragging the engines, or when the prop drives the engine around. This happens at high airspeeds and low power settings. This is the worst thing inside of detonation you can do to a GTSIO-520 engine because of the 2:3 gear ratio. In fact they let you know when you are doing that to them with a scarry sounding rumble through the airframe. The best I can do in descent path is not allways doable if I manage the engines correctly with some vectoring and clearances. This is a very unique airplane in this regard so ATC is just not expecting it and most do not know or assume I can use the descent profile of a Conquest or King Air. Like one of the above posters said, it's when you have to slow down to change configurations you have to level off for a little bit to get a better gradient, but this costs you making a xing restriction, glideslope or airport, it has to be an unable. But you will never know who has speed brakes either, we do not have them and I wish we did for these circumstances.
Maybe when you are doing a Golden Eagle just assume a 3-4 degree descent path and try not to set up a 5 degree or greater. I have since developed an interesting method of flying an ILS and slowing from 190 clean to 120 flaps and gear on the way down but this is un stabilized and not preferable and cannot be performed autopilot coupled if need be for me. The slam dunk ILS seems to be a cronic problem for me at one particular airport.
Bernoulli Fan
Controller
The good news is all new controllers, at least for the past couple years, have gone through basics of airplanes training, including systems.
This is all great stuff, keep it coming!
The vacuum system example was just one example where the controller had no idea what the pilot was talking about. We have controllers that read NOTAMs to an aircraft just about to get on the localizer and other such things that just show a lack of what the pilot might be doing and the best time to do something. Many controllers are also hesitant to ask questions of pilots. I'm just looking to get the controllers here a background on some basics of flying that will help them be better controllers.
None of our trainees have been given any pilot knowledge training, although if you graduated from a CTI program you likely at least have your private.
Also, any of you guys in the MN area and want to come to Minneapolis Center, let me know and I"ll get you in.
The vacuum system example was just one example where the controller had no idea what the pilot was talking about. We have controllers that read NOTAMs to an aircraft just about to get on the localizer and other such things that just show a lack of what the pilot might be doing and the best time to do something. Many controllers are also hesitant to ask questions of pilots. I'm just looking to get the controllers here a background on some basics of flying that will help them be better controllers.
None of our trainees have been given any pilot knowledge training, although if you graduated from a CTI program you likely at least have your private.
Also, any of you guys in the MN area and want to come to Minneapolis Center, let me know and I"ll get you in.
queeno
Ward of the Guberment
back in the early 90s in my area at ZAU we made a list of all the controllers who were pilots and what rateings they had that was at the sups desk so if there was any question there was usally one or more controller/pilots on shift to help.we also would during team briefing have some one go over pilot type items,like the vac system how to read a approach plate etc.
I've never personally experienced this but from what I've seen on some youtube videos, controllers tend to ask too many questions after a pilot declares an emergency. This is an extremely high workload phase and when you come on the radio one time after the other every 20 seconds its distracting to the pilot and you are reversing the order of the long ago stablished aviation matra "AVIATE - NAVIGATE - RADIATE". I know all you are trying to do is to help, but sometimes there is not much you can do from below and we need the time to think and figure out what we are gonna do, so we can ask for it.
Every emergency will be different and im not saying you shouldnt give out any advise to a pilot in distress but try to keep them pertinent to the type of emergency.
For example, declaring an emergency due to an engine failure on a single engine airplane, all I really want to know is the vector to the nearest suitable airport. If Im too low, then there is really not much you can do for me, let me select the most appropriate field and try to glide there. In a case like this, I wouldnt be seeking for assistance from ATC, im more or less trying to tell you "hey im going down" and thats it.
Every emergency will be different and im not saying you shouldnt give out any advise to a pilot in distress but try to keep them pertinent to the type of emergency.
For example, declaring an emergency due to an engine failure on a single engine airplane, all I really want to know is the vector to the nearest suitable airport. If Im too low, then there is really not much you can do for me, let me select the most appropriate field and try to glide there. In a case like this, I wouldnt be seeking for assistance from ATC, im more or less trying to tell you "hey im going down" and thats it.
Ive seen ATC much better with this though too. The controller prefacing necessary info he needs with "Cessna XXX, when able, fuel and souls onboard". "Cessna XXX, recommend heading 320 for XX airport."
ppragman
No pasa nada.
I love getting "turn right heading 150 early turn approved"
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
1. When you call traffic "12'o clock, 2 miles low - I am not going to see it.
2. Don't give me direct to someplace if in fact, there is airspace you wanted me to avoid straight ahead. (that you are the controlling authority for)
3. Do not change missed instructions 5 times on me when inside the marker. I won't remember any of them and will just be asking you again anyway.
4. I hear controllers make calls the wrong tail # about as often as A/C miss calls, don't assume we aren't paying attention. (well, when I hear a tail # that isn't mine, I am half paying attention)
Anyway, thanks to every controller out there - you guys have saved my butt a few times.
2. Don't give me direct to someplace if in fact, there is airspace you wanted me to avoid straight ahead. (that you are the controlling authority for)
3. Do not change missed instructions 5 times on me when inside the marker. I won't remember any of them and will just be asking you again anyway.
4. I hear controllers make calls the wrong tail # about as often as A/C miss calls, don't assume we aren't paying attention. (well, when I hear a tail # that isn't mine, I am half paying attention)
Anyway, thanks to every controller out there - you guys have saved my butt a few times.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
From what I've seen, pilots lacking knowledge of ATC is much more a problem than the other way around. As PIC, you can ALWAYS say "unable" and it's up to them to figure out what to do with you. OTOH, everything I know about ATC has been picked up second hand or by experience and imagination. The number of times I've heard guys bitching about being held down when if they just looked at the TCAS they'd see the sky absolutely filled with aluminum above them...
Which isn't to say these are bad suggestions at all, but I'd sure love it if there were a program that allowed pilots to see the day to day frustrations and difficulties of ATC, and thus make the whole puzzle work a little bit more efficiently and with less kvetching.
Which isn't to say these are bad suggestions at all, but I'd sure love it if there were a program that allowed pilots to see the day to day frustrations and difficulties of ATC, and thus make the whole puzzle work a little bit more efficiently and with less kvetching.
Years ago, I heard something on the ATC freqs that caught my attention. There was an IFE (inflight emergency) in progress. In that instance, an aircraft declared an emergency in Class B airspace. The weather was broken CB with rain, enough-so that IFR aircraft were being vectored to instrument final, with no visual approaches being issued. The aircraft with the IFE (rough-running engine on a Cessna 421) couldn't understand why he wasn't getting immediate vectors to final to land, and whyhe was told to "stand-by" by ATC. He raised hell a few times about it to ATC. But there seemed to be, from my perspective, a few things he failed to understand about ATC and how they work. Now, I fully understand that anytime someone declares an IFE, they expect, and should receive, priority handling to the maximum extent possible. Keep in mind the last part of that sentence: "to the maximum extent possible." When someone has an IFE, their only worry is (rightfully) their aircraft and themselves, but they've got to understand why somethings may happen that may not initially go their way. When an IFE gets declared to ATC, the controller's entire scope doesn't come to a grinding halt. He still has those (possibly) 10+ MTI "blips" to sequence and separate. Once someone declares an IFE, chances are, they've now thrown a monkey wrench into the controllers sequence/separation plan; they're a pain-in-the-ass now for all intents and purposes. He still has his other traffic to work while he works to prioritize the IFE, and may very well have to have the IFE "stand by" while he coordinates with other sectors/tower for the IFE, etc; this workload being possibly multiplied ten-fold if the WX is actual IFR due to sequencing needs and the lack of visual approaches/separation available. Often times, an IFE may just have to recover within the flow that's already in place. It's a crap-sandwitch, I know, but you play the cards you're dealt. And yes, I've been an emergency before, only to be told I was the #7 IFE in progress, and to proceed to an holding fix and hold as published.
Having an IFE isn't any fun for the crew involved, but it can be not-so-fun for ATC also, due to their responsibilities. In the heat of the moment, both sides will have to do the best they can with the situation at hand. Hopefully, reading this, pilots can understand what's going on with that voice that may be telling them to "stand by" during their IFE.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
Mike, I've only had 1 IFE (2 if I had someone to declare it to). But if I deem something serious enough to call it an emergency, I'll do what I need to get on the ground and deal with the consequences later.
If given a hold, "unable" would probably be the only thing you would hear from me. On the other hand, is one rough engine in a 421 really an IFE?
If given a hold, "unable" would probably be the only thing you would hear from me. On the other hand, is one rough engine in a 421 really an IFE?
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Good post, thanks. In that situation, I might very well just announce that I'm declaring an emergency and heading for the outer marker...you have that right as PIC. That said (and as you point out) it's a tapestry, and far too many pilots think (probably aided by the view out the windscreen where there aren't any planes threatening to hit them) that ATC is just there to sequence traffic and get a big pension. It's a little more complex than that. Which is why, again, I wonder that there isn't a program to teach pilots all of the myriad rules, regs, etc that controllers have to deal with in getting us where we're going safely and efficiently. I do think that too much of a "tapestry culture" in which a pilot abdicates his power (and responsability) as PIC is bad. But I think it's equally bad when during normal or say "urgency" situations arise, everyone expects to be treated like the second coming with no appreciation of the fact that the sky is full of hurtling aluminum. I would take a personal vacation to go talk to controllers and understand how things work from their perspective. With all the (IMHO, mostly useless) Safety Seminars that are given on things any PPL who passed their last BFR ought to know, why do we not have a serious program that connects pilots with controllers to understand the view from the scope? Again, as PIC, you have the ultimate authority to do whatever the hell you want if your plane is scaring you. THEIR job is way harder than ours in such a circumstance, because they're ultimately reactive to what WE do, not the other way around.
Edit: I didn't realize that it was just ONE rough running engine. That is not an IFE in my book. When it quits it's an IFE, but not one for which I'm hellbound for leather to get in Right Now.
Edit: I didn't realize that it was just ONE rough running engine. That is not an IFE in my book. When it quits it's an IFE, but not one for which I'm hellbound for leather to get in Right Now.
Winner Winner Winner. A controller has required phraseology they must issue when a pilot declares IFE. You as PIC have the option of following or disregarding any instruction issued by ATC when declaring IFE. ATC is not sitting in the aircraft and is not responsible for getting it on the ground, You as PIC are and as such all decisions are your responsibility. Simply give us the info and we'll accommodate your request with priority handling.