Pilot Internships, and why I won't work for free.

I don't know anyone getting paid to do pilot internships right now, and I know a handful of guys at different airlines doing them. If on moral grounds you felt it was wrong, then its great you stood up for your beliefs. But in most cases, I don't think anyone does a pilot internship to make a few dollars, nor do they expect to.
 
I have known about 10 people to go through there, all have gotten corporate gigs out of it. When you think about the big picture, there are worse things you could be doing in your spare time. As a CFI who doesn't want to go to the regionals, it is one of the few ways to bridge the gap between a Cessna 172 and Cessna Citation.
 
Firebird2XC said:
I recently just exited a pilot internship program.

In my spare hours, I was attending class to learn how to fly a King Air through a local simulator training program.
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Your currently employed as a professional pilot, but at the same time attended an unpaid internship program? I understand you've already left for the reasons you stated, however I thought you were against programs such as these.

I know you were after networking and maybe a bit of new info to keep you sharp upfront, but still you must have known enough about the program before your entered into it, at least knowing it sounds a bit like a "short-cut" type program. Didn't think that was your forte, unless you were doing a behind the scenes investigative reporting type stuff looking for a story on par with rapid upgrades, that would make some good journalism. :cool:
 
Firebird2XC said:
I recently just exited a pilot internship program.

In my spare hours, I was attending class to learn how to fly a King Air through a local simulator training program.

Why was I doing that when I currently have a full time flying job?

Networking, mostly, and a chance to continue learning. But wait a minute, let's look a little closer.

The program director clearly states: "You are not employees. Your purpose here is to sit in the right seat during simulator periods and be a Non-Flying Pilot for a testing student. After 80 simulator sessions, you will be given a type rating."

I did the math, and 80 simulator periods, at four hours a piece, comes to less than I make now for my hourly wage as an actual pilot.

Factor in no per diem, no benefits, and a program that essentially operates on an off-the-book promise, the end result is somewhat modest compensation for my skills.

Here, alas, is the kicker- Were it not for the people sitting in to "throw the gear handle", the space would be occupied by another student, or, in the absence of a student, another instructor.

This company has recently laid off many instructors, including the two that just brought me into the program.

Seeing as how my training would be of marginal cost to the company, and the eventual type rating would be almost entirely a financial by-product of my long-term participation, that would mean I was working for free.

Nearly, anyhow.

Given the current economy and the value I place on my skills, I'm not going to work for anything near "free". If someone wants me to have a type rating in order to hire me, they can pay for it themselves.

Don't work for free, people. It comes at a direct cost to someone else, and hugely undervalues your time.

That is all. :)
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Well, from my perspective and experience it is a good way to get your foot in the door. You see what is going on front row at an airline. You also get to experience ground school and learn more than just the flying side of a company which I truly believe creates a more well rounded person and in return a pilot. As an example working in the safety department enables you to see what happens on the ground if an incident occurs, see the union and law (FAA) side of situation. As well as learn about common mistakes based off statistics and complied reports and how to more importantly, avoid them.

If you have the time and money I suggest doing them. You learn about yourself, the company, and more about the industry. Take it as a learning experience.

In your case, you recieve a type rating? What other type of benefits or other forms of compensation do you recieve?
 
Looks to me like these guys are paid with a type rating. Whether cash or merchandise, it is exchanging time for something. I don't see any problem with it.
 
Here was my 'fuzzy' math for those interested:

Initial 1: $25,000 (light jet)
Initial 2: $25,000 (light jet)
Initial 3: $40,000 (heavy jet)
Recurrent 1: $10,000
Recurrent 2: $10,000
Initial 4: $25,000 (light jet)
TOTAL $135,000
170 SIM sessions equaling 4hrs each with brief/sim/debrief = 680hrs
That ends up being $199/hr
 
I fly part time at a small part 135 cargo op. Right seaters load cargo and fly without pay. Captains also load cargo and are paid to fly. After 1~2 years most right seaters move to the left seat. Virtually all who have come through our company now fly for the airlines or have other well-paid flying jobs.
Those co-pilots who thought that their time was too valuable to fly for free?
Well, most of them are now doing other things with their lives — things that don't involve flying airplanes for a living.
 
gliderboy said:
I fly part time at a small part 135 cargo op. Right seaters load cargo and fly without pay. Captains also load cargo and are paid to fly. After 1~2 years most right seaters move to the left seat. Virtually all who have come through our company now fly for the airlines or have other well-paid flying jobs.
Those co-pilots who thought that their time was too valuable to fly for free?
Well, most of them are now doing other things with their lives — things that don't involve flying airplanes for a living.
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How does one survive for 2 years working without income?
 
If you ain't paying me, I ain't working. I don't give a damn what it's called. Call it an internship, an apprentice position, whatever.

If you ain't paying me, take that "job" and shove it right where the sun don't shine.

Want me to work?

Show me the money.
 
"How does one survive for 2 years working without income?"

We all fly part-time, 2 days a week, thus we have time for paying jobs to pay the bills.
 
To clarify:

The program I was in works as such: We were told flat-out that we were not employees, and essentially were a totally off the books operation. Hmm.

The purpose of having us was to fill the right seat in simulator periods when the customer did not have a partner. In the absence of someone in the internship, an instructor would have filled the seat.

We were told that not using instructors in that role saved the company nearly $500,000 annually. It did so by preventing the use of instructors that could have been used elsewhere.

Therefore, by sitting in that seat, I would have been a part of the leverage that the company used to lay off a large batch of instructors. Given the current state of the world, doing something that undermined good paying jobs with benefits for aviators and flight instructors just seems like bad stuff.

As for the "working for free" thing, the company had to train me to play the role it wanted, which was essentially a competent SIC in type. Since the 'payment' they promised me was the bare minimum required to perform the job in the first place, one can call it 'without pay'.

Those arguing the worth of the type rating are making the same argument regional airlines give when they justify horrendous pay by saying "but the experience you get is invaluable- we're compensating you with that."

All in all, for the hungry up-and-comer, I can see why this program would be extremely appealing. I went into it as a 'diversification' process- I was trying to broaden my horizons a bit to hedge the future.

That being said, I could never get clarity as to exactly what type rating I was getting. There was never anything in writing, and the promises were vague and ever-shifting. Was it 40 sim periods or 80? I heard either. Was it an SIC or PIC rating? I heard either. Odd.

When you water it down, it seems a bit like a 'pay for training' scenario.

So, either way, it seemed like a bad way to do business. Call it entitlement if you like, but as a licensed commercial aviator, I am entitled to seek payment for my services. Upon evaluation I decided it was not worth my time for compensation received. That's both for my immediate compensation and the implied effects on the job market around me.

Take it for what it's worth.
 
The King Air 350 requires both a pilot and copilot, so somebody sits in the right seat to throw the gear handle while the instructor sits back behind on the computer. There is one instructor at work and they offer the right seat in trade for a rating so the customer doesn't have to pay for 2 flight instructors, right?
I don't know, but does anybody else pay for 2 flight instructors at a time?
The other option is for the customer to bring his own co-pilot, whom he would have to pay under these circumstances or what?
 
texas_pilot said:
The King Air 350 requires both a pilot and copilot, so somebody sits in the right seat to throw the gear handle while the instructor sits back behind on the computer. There is one instructor at work and they offer the right seat in trade for a rating so the customer doesn't have to pay for 2 flight instructors, right?
I don't know, but does anybody else pay for 2 flight instructors at a time?
The other option is for the customer to bring his own co-pilot, whom he would have to pay under these circumstances or what?
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I'm not really sure what the costs to the customer were at this vender.
I'm assuming that the program was a set price, and the cost incurred by the company varied. There may or may not have been incentives to fill both seats.
 
SimCom right?

Yeah, heard about it. . . at least the other large contract training provider pays their part-time seat fillers.

Glad to see you saw the light in that program though.

Believe it or not, your time is valuable. Be compensated for it.
 
mikecweb said:
Ahhhh I love a warm glass of entitlement in the morning.
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I am not a charity, and the work I do has value. I expect to receive compensation for it. If someone doesn't like it, he can shove it where the sun don't shine. Or down his throat and choke on it.

I know, that's just crazy talk. Expecting to receive pay for work?

Ridiculous.
 
gliderboy said:
I fly part time at a small part 135 cargo op. Right seaters load cargo and fly without pay.

Those co-pilots who thought that their time was too valuable to fly for free?
Well, most of them are now doing other things with their lives — things that don't involve flying airplanes for a living.
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Key Slimer?
 
tonyw said:
I am not a charity, and the work I do has value. I expect to receive compensation for it. If someone doesn't like it, he can shove it where the sun don't shine. Or down his throat and choke on it.

I know, that's just crazy talk. Expecting to receive pay for work?

Ridiculous.
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Gear slinging in a simulator is hardly considered 'work'
 
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