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Pilot Error to Blame in PHL Aborted T/O
- Thread starter Soul Brotha'
- Start date
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
It's interesting reading the back and forth here on aborts.
Let's make it a bit more simple with some common sense. In general, after numerous CRM studies, it is better for the CA to make the abort decision. This is similar to how it's typically better for the FO to fly in the event of an abnormal and the CA to manage the situation.
As something arises, call it out. They will make the decision, which is normally correct. Most of the time (how often do we abort anyways? I've done 2 in 10 years and they were both low speed), this works best. Seeing it in the schoolhouse countless times, I tend to agree.
But of course, there is clearly the wrong "GO" decision (or lack of decision). It's still pretty simple... if you see it becoming unsafe really quick... CALL IT OUT. "ABORT ABORT ABORT."
You're going to have to explain yourself later (as will the CA), but that's better than being dead.
Let's make it a bit more simple with some common sense. In general, after numerous CRM studies, it is better for the CA to make the abort decision. This is similar to how it's typically better for the FO to fly in the event of an abnormal and the CA to manage the situation.
As something arises, call it out. They will make the decision, which is normally correct. Most of the time (how often do we abort anyways? I've done 2 in 10 years and they were both low speed), this works best. Seeing it in the schoolhouse countless times, I tend to agree.
But of course, there is clearly the wrong "GO" decision (or lack of decision). It's still pretty simple... if you see it becoming unsafe really quick... CALL IT OUT. "ABORT ABORT ABORT."
You're going to have to explain yourself later (as will the CA), but that's better than being dead.
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Rock and a hard place... In sim world nothing I could do was right. I explained that when the CA did not abort I would have taken the controls and done it myself. That was not well received. "Never ever do that, you aren't allowed." I am also not allowed to make the decision. So what they were driving at in sim world was if he doesn't make the right decision, as FO my only option is to call the failure "louder" or "more forcefully".
When I did my abort for the rating, the sim was paused before and after and I was told in no uncertain terms this was for the rating only, under no circumstances am I to conduct an abort as an FO on the line.
It's like sim world just wants to piss you off, because they take all your tools away and tell you afterwards "but if you feel like you are going to die, go ahead and do it."
Not going to lie, most confusing debrief, ever.
When I did my abort for the rating, the sim was paused before and after and I was told in no uncertain terms this was for the rating only, under no circumstances am I to conduct an abort as an FO on the line.
It's like sim world just wants to piss you off, because they take all your tools away and tell you afterwards "but if you feel like you are going to die, go ahead and do it."
Not going to lie, most confusing debrief, ever.
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jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Current shop or old shop?
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Current.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Well that's surprising as hell. I'd expect that out of your last employer.
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Yeah we do have some quirks. Aborts are one of them IMO. Would not be having this conversation had the CA made the correct decision in the first place. Lol
Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
So you as the captain want an FO to take over and forcefully reject the aircraft if he deems so? Pretty clear why you got a debrief on that.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Post of the thread and an operating philosophy I agree with. Thanks for your insight.
A
Adler
Guest
Apples vs oranges argument, but an airplane is still an airplane... In the three crew environment the malfunction is almost always called by the engineer or PM. They call out the problem "engine failure" right as the engine starts spooling down, before the PF would notice the plane feeling any different. Sure in that situation, the engineer is staring at the airspeed and systems instrumentations, but here's another example.
Climbing out and cleaning up, as the plane accelerates it also slowly gets heavy on one side, the PF adjusts the trim. You may think that you're the smartest, most observant pilot and know everything going on, but it is always the PM or FE who notices that a flap has failed to retract.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
I've had the opposite experience. I've always had the rudder correction in before the PM can call power loss. I've found the plane, if you're paying attention, will always tell you what it's doing before the EICAS does.
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
I asked the supervisors today, and they agree with my sentiment. Essentially, you have to be a pilot at some point and do what it takes to not crash. I've taught that M lesson where the FO does the reject for the type rating. I think you take away is a little strong. I wouldn't say that "under no circumstances." I'd say, in a normal situation, the captain does the reject. But if the captain makes the wrong decision or isn't responsive that's not a normal situation. Then you've got to be a pilot.
If the instructor said otherwise, he isn't reflecting the intent of the SOP.
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Of course not. But I cannot call an abort. I called out the malfunction, and the CA made his decision.
Again, "abort" is not a phrase I'm allowed to say, nor can I take the controls. All I can do per SOP is to keep calling the problem and hope the CA makes the right choice. That goes out the window at "think I'm going to die". But it was sim world and I was abiding by sim world law.
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PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
That's not the interpretation I got from the training standards guys today. If the captain didn't make the right decision, say "Windshear Reject." If he doesn't respond to that, assume he's incapacitated and take control.
To quote them,
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Well he called "continue". Heh. "No, reject!!!"
Not that it changes the discussion, but I mistakenly wrote that we went off the end. The airplane rotated but it was sporty as heck. It was the windshear sim where the trend vector falls through the floor.
At my old shop, I had a CA take a prior-to-V1 cut airborne in the sim after I called out engine failure twice.
Also had a guy reject for a caution in the real world. It was a brake caution too. Mind was blown.
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Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
So.... who wants to call V1 at V1 - 5 knots?
FlyingT
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, that's what one training captain at my current 135 employer thinks should happen. He says by the time you say it and I hear it, we'll be past it.
Even though I previously flew for a manufacturer, I couldn't convince him that he was over-thinking the design of that callout.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
As PM, I'm not staring at the EICAS as we roll down the runway anyway, and the first line of the profile keys me to look at EICAS. EICAS-FMA-PFD-glance outside-EICAS-repeat is more what I do. And I'm with you on the directional control thing too. I'll have the yaw stopped before the PM can tell me that one is rolling back. On both the previous airplane ("ENGINE FAILURE, CHECK POWER") and on the current airplane ("CHECK THRUST"), the pilot flying says the magic words to get us into V1 cut land. Tachometers are slow; the airplane turning is not.
FlyingT
Well-Known Member
There's a good white paper at the FAA on this: http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/training/media/takeoff_safety.pdf
That -5 knots (roughly 1 second reaction time) is already built in. Plus another second for the configuration changes to occur. It takes time to begin to spool down an engine, deploy speedbrakes, and build brake pressure.