dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
I don't see what the big deal is. You guys just sit in a room talking on the radio all day, right? :yar:
Pilot/ATC pay over career
- Thread starter flyeagle111
- Start date
I don't see what the big deal is. You guys just sit in a room talking on the radio all day, right? :yar:
A side note on how far controllers have come and how much pilots have lost consider this..... Controllers were paid 20k to a max (very few made the max) of the high 40s in 1981 when RR fired all the controllers. A Captain on a Jet flying 60-90 pax made well north of 100k. Load factors were much lower, and loads that were then carried by the DC-9, 737-200, and even the 727 were usually less than 100 pax. Today those loads are flown by the regionals. The same work today, using a very conservative inflation adjustment would mean a RJ Capt would have to be paid over 230k per year to get paid for providing the same pax lift. Considering the fact that more block hours are flown today makes the 230k estimate very, very conservative.
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
yet theres still people willing to do it.
Always will be.
Problem is at some point you go from a "Sully" to a "Marvin". We are there now.
The job requires a level of compensation to attract and retain a capable individual who can get the job done without putting the aircraft into a spin at the FAF, killing all aboard. The number of "Marvins" flying around the system right now would horrify the public at large if they only knew.
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
The problem is, the public gets what they pay for. You wanna pay 100 bucks for a trans con ticket? you get a $15 an hour pilot. We charge almost 600 an hour for a 185, and some people bitch about our prices; but then again, we've never killed a person in our 50 year history.
fsiflyer
Well-Known Member
Also don't forget international corporate pilots...
On the CL300 (Yearly)
1st Year FO - $120,000
1st year CA - $144,000
3rd Year CA - $180,000
5th Year CA - $204,000
Get into management such as Chief Pilot and numbers go higher and higher. Remember airlines are nice but there are many gigs that pay as much or more.
Fly safe everyone.
On the CL300 (Yearly)
1st Year FO - $120,000
1st year CA - $144,000
3rd Year CA - $180,000
5th Year CA - $204,000
Get into management such as Chief Pilot and numbers go higher and higher. Remember airlines are nice but there are many gigs that pay as much or more.
Fly safe everyone.
Actually the public gets what the airline pays for on their behalf. This is significant because the public has no way to differentiate and pay more for a higher qualification level of pilot. There is no "Sort by pilot with most hours/least busted checkrides" If they could, some would pay more. The ATA, RAA, IATA, etc would fight this however because it would create upward pressure on wages as airlines would then have to bid up pilots with higher qualifications. Airlines that could not afford experienced pilots would be outed and see business drop off dramatically. There is a huge cost savings to the industry by pretending that any pilot that meets the FAA minimums regardless of their pilot record, is equally capable as someone with a very robust level of experience, and spotless history.
High rollers are not stupid. They value their lives and pay a premium to stack the deck in their favor. Joe six pack gets to fly with "Marvin".
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
While its true the public has no way to differentiate the experience level of a pilot, the airline, does, and the pilot does also. Its really not a question of taking low pay to pay your dues, its a question of getting paid what you think you're worth. If you think your expertise is worth 20 or 25k a year to fly around 70 people, then you have serious competency issues.
I might just be a lowly piston driver, but i get paid what i think im worth, and if the industry is ever going to see any growth in terms of pay, pilots have to stop justifying low wages. I'm just a pimple on a gnat's ass, but my resume is one less that wont cross the CP's desk.
boondr
Penalty Vectorer
I'm just going off of what the OP said: 3 million in career earnings, and another 2 and a half pension; retirement at 56. There are not too many jobs/professions in the private sector that offer compensation packages like that, particularly for lower level, technical operations employees. Paid attention to the news? States are growing broke with all of their unfunded pension and health care obligations for public sector employees. Why should the Federal government be any different?
Something is going to have to change. It's not a matter of the intrinsic value of the controller; it's that we simply do not have the money. That's why I think there will be a paradigm shift in the ATC career in the not too distant future.
Something is going to have to change. It's not a matter of the intrinsic value of the controller; it's that we simply do not have the money. That's why I think there will be a paradigm shift in the ATC career in the not too distant future.
Many cities, counties, have tried to get out of or reduce their pension obligations through restructuring. Amazingly, as the courts have allowed private companies to dump their obligations without a fight, public sector pension funding have found ZERO relief from the courts. ZERO. Couldn't have anything to do with the Judges, court employees, etc on public pensions...... Nooooooooo..... No!
It is going to be very interesting as a huge number of boomers move into retirement over the next two decades. Federal, State, County, City employees on lifetime pensions adjusted for inflation with lifetime healthcare...... and everyone else, who is supposed to pay those unfunded obligations, with no ability to pay let alone fund their own retirement.
The anger, make that rage on the tax obligations ahead will make the current tax shortfalls look like the good old days.
boondr
Penalty Vectorer
The benefits are great no doubt but the retirement is not a some freebie extra, we pay into that retirement every paycheck, just like every government employee. My previous job I worked after getting out of the Marines, I was making more money than I am now but there was no security(I got laid off when the housing market tanked). I worked longer, harder, and more stressful(relative) hours for that money, but the fact remains that this job is more difficult with a lot more riding on everything we do. I can only put in context with what I know, and that is that while compensation, benefits and perks of this job are generous they are deserved.
Comparisons with pilot pay are asinine at best because I doubt any of you would say pilots are paid what they are worth in the industry as a whole. My point is that despite the outward appearance of some lavish cake-easy job. Extremely few professions outside the ones we have chosen (pilots included) have the high number of lives on line with every decision that is made on a daily basis.
:beer:
Comparisons with pilot pay are asinine at best because I doubt any of you would say pilots are paid what they are worth in the industry as a whole. My point is that despite the outward appearance of some lavish cake-easy job. Extremely few professions outside the ones we have chosen (pilots included) have the high number of lives on line with every decision that is made on a daily basis.
:beer:
genot
Well-Known Member
The arguement about Federal pensions being dumped is a little nieve. In the early 80's all Federal employees were under a system called CSRS. The pension in that system was much more generous than the current FERS system. When the change was made to FERS all employees hired under CSRS had the option of remaining CSRS. There is precedent established that all FERS federal employees (not just controllers) would retain their FERS retirements. Could you imagine the outcry if one of the largest employers (the US goverment) told employees very close to retirement, "sorry guys, that pension, yeah you paid into it, but were taking it away now"? (respectfully I say) get real. Even then. What is the incentive? To dump the elderly ex feds with no money (who granted ignorantly expected a pension) on the dole? Well, the feds pay for that, so... That said I still fully fund my TSP (fed version of the 401K) just in case :beer:.
My beef is not that the public sector has pensions... it's that public sector employees, feds, set up pension funding requirements for the private sector that required levels to be maintained in a narrow band. Can't have too much in there during the good times...... ooops can't have too little in there during the bad times.... eventually the private sector decided to bag it, just too hard to maintain funding in the narrow band. Then the public sector employees ( Bankruptcy Judges ) said, ok let's see, first thing to throw under the bus.... when times were tough, pension obligations of the private sector; but when those obligations face difficulty in the public sector they are sacred.
genot
Well-Known Member
I'm not equiped to debate on the scale of an economist (I'm a poly sci major, I've found we [ economists and political scientists] know enough about eachother to realize we know nothing about eachoter), but I can certainly understand where you are coming from in the terms you've set.
A non collectivised entity, that is judges, in your words killed airline pensions. Thats not us controllers influencing that. I'll tell you this right now. If Spirit flew anywhere near me I'd have been walking the picket lines hand in hand with ALPA. If NATCA for whatever reason said don't do that I'd be contributing to the strike fund and paying for delivery lunches for the men and women on strike.
We had our version of SJS in this profession for a while, but stood strong. Spirit did the same and from what I hear got what they wanted. We slugged it out for three years. Nobody in their right mind would (no offense here) work high / mid level ATC for starter FO regional wages. As a controller I want pilots to make ever cent they can. You guys / gals deserve it. Every one of you deserves a pension and early retirement. Every controller you've ever heard would agree with that. Believe me. Every emergency I've ever handled the one stark fact hits me when I ship the guy. I'm on the ground drinking my coffee or eating take out. You could auger in and I'm still going to sleep in my bed that night and make my Friday plans. Even the best outcomes I still think about a week later, it isn't that I don't care or I'm a whiner, but I know who is really feeling the pressure.
Controllers and pilots are hand in hand. The better you do the better I do. Until then, "Have a good trip." Seems to be my tag line anymore.
A non collectivised entity, that is judges, in your words killed airline pensions. Thats not us controllers influencing that. I'll tell you this right now. If Spirit flew anywhere near me I'd have been walking the picket lines hand in hand with ALPA. If NATCA for whatever reason said don't do that I'd be contributing to the strike fund and paying for delivery lunches for the men and women on strike.
We had our version of SJS in this profession for a while, but stood strong. Spirit did the same and from what I hear got what they wanted. We slugged it out for three years. Nobody in their right mind would (no offense here) work high / mid level ATC for starter FO regional wages. As a controller I want pilots to make ever cent they can. You guys / gals deserve it. Every one of you deserves a pension and early retirement. Every controller you've ever heard would agree with that. Believe me. Every emergency I've ever handled the one stark fact hits me when I ship the guy. I'm on the ground drinking my coffee or eating take out. You could auger in and I'm still going to sleep in my bed that night and make my Friday plans. Even the best outcomes I still think about a week later, it isn't that I don't care or I'm a whiner, but I know who is really feeling the pressure.
Controllers and pilots are hand in hand. The better you do the better I do. Until then, "Have a good trip." Seems to be my tag line anymore.
boondr
Penalty Vectorer
queeno
Ward of the Guberment
FWIW i was one of the first FERS hires and through my years with the FAA i paid 19.1% of my pay a year into my retirement ( that encludes TSP, SSI, and FERS)so its not a free ride ,if you want a good retirement you have to put a lot of you own money into it.CSRS only had to put in 6.5% a year.
OG
OG
You say that judges killed pensions. I say that judges saved companies. Good or bad, right or wrong, these companies did not have the money to fund their pension obligations AND stay in business. So, take your pick: Job with no pension. Pension with no job.
My only point in this thread is that the the same thing is coming to the public sector, because we as a nation don't have the money. The only question is: now or later?
Again, it's not a matter of worth. "Deserve's got nothing to do with it." We don't have the money. It's that simple.
In the restructuring bankruptcy court the problem presented is this: Too many bills and obligations, not enough money. The court then decides who gets the shaft and who doesn't. Debt is wiped out at the stroke of a pen. It is not a simple matter of this: 50% short of assets required each creditor takes a 50% hit. No, the pattern that has emerged of the last decade is this: Everyone gets a shot at pleading their case then the hits are distributed as the court sees fit. In reality the side with the better lawyers (read deeper pockets) take the smallest hit. Pension obligations have surfaced as being the first easy target to toss under the bus by the Judge who has a secure pension waiting for him. The lawyers clean up and walk away with 5 gallon buckets full of cash. The employees (read future Walmart greeters) walk away wondering what just happened after 35 years with the company.
Public pension funding issues have been presented to the courts for relief. In all cases so far the Judges rule public pensions are a sacred promise that cannot be broken. Oh, and by the way the public coffers are out of cash.... they don't have the money but the priorities are much different.
The same Judges then consider private pensions nothing more than disposable obligation to toss in the can without a second thought.