Picking up a plane

[falconvalley]

Also, if an FBO says "Hey this flight's on us", that is not compensation unless they profit somehow. There are many examples of how an owner/operator can profit from giving a renter free flight time. That is one problem. What really bugs the FAA, though is when a non-commercial pilot (or a commercial pilot not operating under a legal charter operation) takes passengers from point A to point B. The only way to prove to the FAA that that wasn't a charter is to show them that everybody shared the expenses.

 

[meyers9163]

Also, if an FBO says "Hey this flight's on us", that is not compensation unless they profit somehow. There are many examples of how an owner/operator can profit from giving a renter free flight time. That is one problem. What really bugs the FAA, though is when a non-commercial pilot takes passengers from point A to point B and not back. The only way to prove to the FAA that that wasn't a charter is to show them that everybody shared the expenses.

Well this answers it then! This is exactly what is and has been done for him. Therefore he is ok and doing this is allowed?

 

[falconvalley]

Why is he repositioning the plane? Would the FBO have to move the plane, whether someone rents it or not, to continue making revenue with it? That could be considered a commercial operation, therefore requiring a revenue rental or an employee commercial pilot, unfortunately for your friend.

 

[meyers9163]

Why is he repositioning the plane? Would the FBO have to move the plane, whether someone rents it or not, to continue making revenue with it? That could be considered a commercial operation, therefore requiring a revenue rental or an employee commercial pilot, unfortunately for your friend.

Interesting..... I think perhaps I will jsut call good ole FSDO and ask..... Not bringing any names up but just to inquire. Because would that also count if a plane is flown out to pick up an aircraft and then a commercial pilot flies the "new" plane back and an ppl/ifr rated guy flies the rental back? So perhaps i'll just call FSDO and ask! I love those guys anyways!

 

[falconvalley]

Same answer for that. Is the FBO cool with either airplane just staying at either airport? If they definitely want both airplanes to come back to make revenue, the airplanes have to be rented or a commercial pilot employee has to be flying in that case.

The FBO can, however, offer a free flight to your friend for other things, such as buying flight time, being a good customer, etc.

The FBO cannot give them a free flight for any reason that benefits or has benefited the FBO at all, financially.

 

[Aero_Engineer]

That is completely illegal, he can get in trouble heck maybe even get his medical pulled for that.
Any sort of compensation which also defines into gain of flight hours is only legal if you are a commercially rated pilot if not you can have any sort of personal gain for flying a plane.
Make sure he checks on that so he won't be in trouble with the FAA.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

The FBO can, however, offer a free flight to your friend for other things, such as buying flight time, being a good customer, etc.

The FBO cannot give them a free flight for any reason that benefits or has benefited the FBO at all, financially.

OK, so the pilot flys out and rents the plane for the return flight. Lets say it rents for $100 and takes 4.5 hours. Pays the $450 to rent the plane. The FBO can then say you are a good customer for doing your training with us, so we are going to credit your account $450???? Go out and have some flight time on us???

Did this just get around 61.113?

 

[JCUERVO]

OK, here is the part of the reg you are looking for.

§ 61.113 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.


(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.

(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.

Going back to 61.113, the flight school I did most of my training with in florida CONSTANTLY got PPL to repo planes to seperate airfields due to hurricane threats, etc. this WAS NOT viewed as a commercial operation by the FSDO b/c the PPL was NOT receiving any form of compensation and the flight school was NOT profiting from these repositioning flights therefore it is basically seen as the owner lending the plane out to the the pilot...The FAR'S are open to interpretation and knowing them is knowing how to work them.

 

[meyers9163]

Going back to 61.113, the flight school I did most of my training with in florida CONSTANTLY got PPL to repo planes to seperate airfields due to hurricane threats, etc. this WAS NOT viewed as a commercial operation by the FSDO b/c the PPL was NOT receiving any form of compensation and the flight school was NOT profiting from these repositioning flights therefore it is basically seen as the owner lending the plane out to the the pilot...The FAR'S are open to interpretation and knowing them is knowing how to work them.

DING DING DING. And FISDO has stated, "nothing is written against what you have told me." Therefore what I was told today it is ok to fly out in a rental plane, and fly back the rental plane as long as the guy flying the "sales" plane that they just bought is commercial rated. Weird but just called FSDO myself and he said the whole "compensation" as being flight time isnt in the books and its a gray area that may be cleared up in the near future.

Secondly, I think a lot of things are "illegal" according to the FARs. I would even go as far as saying those who fly with their parents and their parents end up paying for the flight, that is illegal yet it happens all the time. Anyways got my answer from FSDO and thought I'd pass it along. But from the gentlemen I talked to said its ok and got his number and info if I am ever in doubt or my buddy is questioned.

 

[E6BAV8R]

DING DING DING. And FISDO has stated, "nothing is written against what you have told me." Therefore what I was told today it is ok to fly out in a rental plane, and fly back the rental plane as long as the guy flying the "sales" plane that they just bought is commercial rated. Weird but just called FSDO myself and he said the whole "compensation" as being flight time isnt in the books and its a gray area that may be cleared up in the near future.

Secondly, I think a lot of things are "illegal" according to the FARs. I would even go as far as saying those who fly with their parents and their parents end up paying for the flight, that is illegal yet it happens all the time. Anyways got my answer from FSDO and thought I'd pass it along. But from the gentlemen I talked to said its ok and got his number and info if I am ever in doubt or my buddy is questioned.

..and that is the ####ter with the FSDO. Call the FSDO again and I bet you will get a different answer. The entire Commercial license is a "gray area". You might want to get that in writing and signed from the FSDO guy you talked to.

I'd look at it as the repos. flight is that he is repos. the aircraft to allow the FBO to make money = makes it illegal.

 

[meyers9163]

..and that is the ####ter with the FSDO. Call the FSDO again and I bet you will get a different answer. The entire Commercial license is a "gray area". You might want to get that in writing and signed from the FSDO guy you talked to.

I'd look at it as the repos. flight is that he is repos. the aircraft to allow the FBO to make money = makes it illegal.

I agree.... I dont plan on doing this at all! I mean if its that gray I'd never want to because why risk it. However like I've stated those who I know who do this I might encourage them to think twice. But I agree there's a great chance one FSDO guys/gal says one thing the other says another. Totally agree with that! And with your and others statement it helps/benefits the business and geneartes income (sales planes make money, perhaps not the rental, even though it played a role in acquiring the sales plane) oh well. Too much gray/red tape for me to do this. I'll just wait for the hours before I were to do such.

 

[falconvalley]

OK, so the pilot flys out and rents the plane for the return flight. Lets say it rents for $100 and takes 4.5 hours. Pays the $450 to rent the plane. The FBO can then say you are a good customer for doing your training with us, so we are going to credit your account $450???? Go out and have some flight time on us???

Did this just get around 61.113?

Doesn't that sound a little fishy to you? Comeon man, be realistic. How can flightschools offer a 10% block discount? There's a process to it...

 

[DE727UPS]

In spite of much of the advice, here, moving airplanes around for people happens all the time. The FAA isn't running around looking to violate people saying "your free airplane time is compensation". I'd like to see an FAA reference to that, as some have mentioned. Plus, I believe your call to the FSDO proves it's not an issue.

Anyone have a referece to the FAA considering free flight time compensation?

I used to do it all the time in the 70's without a second thought.

 

[juxtapilot]

Interesting..... I think perhaps I will jsut call good ole FSDO and ask..... Not bringing any names up but just to inquire. Because would that also count if a plane is flown out to pick up an aircraft and then a commercial pilot flies the "new" plane back and an ppl/ifr rated guy flies the rental back? So perhaps i'll just call FSDO and ask! I love those guys anyways!

Please make sure the FSDO can't track down where this is happening... If the FSDO is a mile away from the FBO where this is happening call an FSDO 500 miles away. They might consider your inquiry a tip.

 

[Italianaviator]

So I have a friend of my who is at a FBO and trying to get hours. Anyways he recently has been allowed to go out and pick up some planes for them and isnt commercial. I am assuming he is flying for free just to get the hours. Anyways question is, since he is only PPL/IFR and not a commercial pilot is this legal? He isnt flying for the company nor is he taking money for the trips rather just flying to get his TT up? Is that allowed? Just wondering more or less.

My roomate did something like that and got paid for it and only had a private and instrument rating and I clearly told him that was illegal. So in his defense he said he was getting paid for hotels and accomidations. But yeah that is illegal either way, its all in the regs.

 

[Goonie]

In spite of much of the advice, here, moving airplanes around for people happens all the time. The FAA isn't running around looking to violate people saying "your free airplane time is compensation". I'd like to see an FAA reference to that, as some have mentioned. Plus, I believe your call to the FSDO proves it's not an issue.

Anyone have a referece to the FAA considering free flight time compensation?

I used to do it all the time in the 70's without a second thought.

Thank You!!!

As an aircraft owner(former) if I wanted a buddy of mine to fly my airplane from point A to point B, I dont see anything in the FAR's that say I cant.

Now if the FBO is getting compesated by the owners, that I dont know...

 

[Goonie]

That is completely illegal, he can get in trouble heck maybe even get his medical pulled for that.
Any sort of compensation which also defines into gain of flight hours is only legal if you are a commercially rated pilot if not you can have any sort of personal gain for flying a plane.
Make sure he checks on that so he won't be in trouble with the FAA.

Where does it say flight hours is compensation. Not what the FAA thinks but where is this written in the FAR's?

And medical pulled???

 

[meyers9163]

Please make sure the FSDO can't track down where this is happening... If the FSDO is a mile away from the FBO where this is happening call an FSDO 500 miles away. They might consider your inquiry a tip.

Did so! Live in Indiana and its happening in OH. Called a FSDO in Dallas I believe it was!

 

[PGT]

pro rata somthing something.....

61.113 (c) says "A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees."

 

[FlySooner9]

ok these rules about commercial flying have never made sense to me. For one, what if the guy being described pays say 5 bucks to be able to fly these flights. Then its no longet compensation right? Or am i totaly missing something. Second just for my curiosity. How does the FAA ever find out about things like the scenrio described?