Picking up a plane

meyers9163

meyers9163

Well-Known Member
So I have a friend of my who is at a FBO and trying to get hours. Anyways he recently has been allowed to go out and pick up some planes for them and isnt commercial. I am assuming he is flying for free just to get the hours. Anyways question is, since he is only PPL/IFR and not a commercial pilot is this legal? He isnt flying for the company nor is he taking money for the trips rather just flying to get his TT up? Is that allowed? Just wondering more or less.
 
This is completely illegal. The FAA interprets flight time as compensation, therfore requiring a commercial certificate for what you just described.
 
So would this also be the same if the owner of the plane were to ask a "friend" to go pick up a plane and that friend does so? I mean I never thought of compensation as flight time but it makes sense I guess (not really though). So should I recommend he stops doing these trips for the FBO and some owners of these planes are the FBO? Since he isnt commercial rated yet? I could see how this is a "fine" line though.
 
I_Money said:
But what about the owner saying yeah you can fly it if you want -
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That and or what if the owner says ok you can rent it if you buy me dinner or like $100 for the trip? I mean then he is paying for the flight time?

ps..... This guy has invested a lot of money at this FBO so they were trying to find ways to help him out with reduce flying/free flying. So he isnt trying to screw anyone or a system, just wants to find a way to get to the TT needed for a commercial etc. Just thought I'd throw it out there before i get a comment on this.

Also can I get a reg number on this compensation as "flight time" I've never heard that one!
 
Minnesota_Flyer said:
There's no reg. But the FAA has consistently taken the position that free flight time is compensation.
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So would this mean later on when I have an opportunity to ride along and fly dead legs of some freight runs I would have to assure I have multi commercial to be able to log those runs? Even if i were to have a commercial single and be a cfi/cfii? Just trying to get clarification on this matter. Also should I recommend this guy doesnt do this flying for them any more or just say if he gets caught he gets caught? I dont want him getting into trouble? Or would he really get into trouble for this? Since legally there is not an official regulation for this?
 
meyers9163 said:
So would this mean later on when I have an opportunity to ride along and fly dead legs of some freight runs I would have to assure I have multi commercial to be able to log those runs?
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To log SIC time in Part 135 operations, you have to have 2 things. Of course, the first is a commercial ticket in the category and class of aircraft being flown, and 2 is a Form 8410, which is a Part 135 check ride. You will have to complete the company's training program and take a check ride with either the company's FAA Principal Operations Inspector or a company check airman.
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
To log SIC time in Part 135 operations, you have to have 2 things. Of course, the first is a commercial ticket in the category and class of aircraft being flown, and 2 is a Form 8410, which is a Part 135 check ride. You will have to complete the company's training program and take a check ride with either the company's FAA Principal Operations Inspector or a company check airman.
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That's kind of what I thought..... But thanks..... What if its a local charter operation for the FBO is that the same regulation 135?
 
I suggest your friend reads this book...

http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?DID=19&Product_ID=634



Also you can't just sit along for the ride at a freight outfit getting multi-time unless you work or are trained for that freight outfit. Go to an interview and they ask you about it and you say you just sat along for the ride, no training, not SIC typed, etc, your interview will most likely be over.
 
He clearly could get into trouble for it. The FAA has taken down people for commercial flying where the only compensation was the free flight time.

But also remember that compensation is only a piece of the issue. If I, as a lawyer, needed to get to Chicago to do lawyer things, and I convinced my firm to pay for me to rent a plane to fly myself to Chicago for that purpose, rather than fly commercial, it would not be a commercial operation because the flying is incidental to my true purpose for the trip.

The problem your friend seems to have, as described in your first post, is that he doesn't seem to have an independent purpose for making the trip other than to get the plane for the FBO. That's the problem.

If I have time, I'll see if I can find the cases laying out this issue.

Or we can just wait for MidLife to show up. :)
 
Minnesota_Flyer said:
He clearly could get into trouble for it. The FAA has taken down people for commercial flying where the only compensation was the free flight time.

But also remember that compensation is only a piece of the issue. If I, as a lawyer, needed to get to Chicago to do lawyer things, and I convinced my firm to pay for me to rent a plane to fly myself to Chicago for that purpose, rather than fly commercial, it would not be a commercial operation because the flying is incidental to my true purpose for the trip.

The problem your friend seems to have, as described in your first post, is that he doesn't seem to have an independent purpose for making the trip other than to get the plane for the FBO. That's the problem.

If I have time, I'll see if I can find the cases laying out this issue.

Or we can just wait for MidLife to show up. :)
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That's kind of what myself and another fellow JCer had discussed and thought. But that's why he put it to me to post and ask and we got the answer we thought. However it seems like the FAA might want to add compensation as free flying as well. I guess not to distort things but when its worded that way as in flying is compensation it makes it seem those who fly for a living should be thankful as well for flying because they get to fly (you are already being compensated because you get to fly). Just seems like when they define it they will have to be careful with how they define it. Thanks for the help though!
 
Seggy said:
I suggest your friend reads this book...

http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?DID=19&Product_ID=634



Also you can't just sit along for the ride at a freight outfit getting multi-time unless you work or are trained for that freight outfit. Go to an interview and they ask you about it and you say you just sat along for the ride, no training, not SIC typed, etc, your interview will most likely be over.
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I've actually read that before. But I was kind of wondering when it came to like flying a king air, or a seneca, etc. Not freight i guess, i worded that wrong. Because I know some places have those for there CFi's to fly and I was just wondering how you go about that. I knew a lot of it was flying "dead" legs and therefore I was uncertain about it.
 
Is there a way to make it legal, say he assisted in the fuel/oil for the flight?

I asked as because I know some flight schools that discount flights .2-.3 to fuel up at other fields to save on avgas. I have also flown to other airports to get parts for the flight school in the past for free flight, but I will say my CFI was with me and they were paying him.
 
Flying a rental without paying out of your own pocket (in itself) is NOT necessarily compensation. Repositioning a rental without anybody paying, the repo itself thereby enabling the owner/operator to profit, IS compensation.
 
OK, here is the part of the reg you are looking for.

§ 61.113 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...=20070213:1.9;idno=14;cc=ecfr;start=1;size=25
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.

(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.
 
SkyKing said:
OK, here is the part of the reg you are looking for.

§ 61.113 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...=20070213:1.9;idno=14;cc=ecfr;start=1;size=25
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.

(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.
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What about flying a C-310 under party 91 rules as a CFI/CFII?

Good ole 61.113 how'd i know! haha makes sense but I guess back to what Complex had stated, what if its a rental on the leg out and rental on the way back and nothing is paid, would complex be right in his question/assumption?
 
The reg is pretty cut and dry for once. If you read the reg for what it is trying to say, you'll notice that it's giving you a way to prove that you aren't flying passengers for compensation. The only way to do that is to share the expenses. Also any operation that is for profit or enables a profit is a commercial operation. This doesn't mean that you can't fly your uncle's airplane around the patch a few times without paying a dime. That is not a commercial operation.
 
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