PIC while doing dual...?

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Hello CFIs,
Just updating my log book for a job interview....looking back I found some odd entries..(oh no did say "odd").

When I'am rec'ing dual instruction for my IFR rating and I am under the hood in the left seat, Is that PIC or does the Instructor only, log PIC? Oh and I was not current at the time...Needed to do my BFR, but I had current medical.
My instructor only logged, in my book, the total SEL and zero PIC for me and then Dual Rec'd.

So when do I get PIC when Im getting dual? Only when Im not under the hood?

Thanks, I ll take my answer off the air.
 
61.51(e)(1)(i)
(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
 
Right...but I have entries that are all over the map...Dual with PIC, Dual without PIC, So what's up there? It's mostly when Im under the hood that there is no PIC, but then when my BFR was overdue..NO PIC while doing the BFR? Im not likein this.

I am NOT the sole manipulator when there is a CFI next to me.......so why did they log PIC???
What a mess.
 
I am NOT the sole manipulator when there is a CFI next to me.......so why did they log PIC???
What a mess.

If your hands were on the controls and theirs weren't, you were the sole manipulator. How often did your CFI put their hands on the controls? Maybe 1-2 minutes per flight to demonstrate a maneuver?

Don't make it complicated. This topic comes up all the time and the answer is always the same. Rated for category and class, sole manipulator = PIC. Currency and flight training are irrelevant.
 
Okay...got it!!!! Thanks yes, that is very clear...She only grabbed the yoke on the third or fourth bounce!
I assumed "sole manipulator" to be he/she who ranked the highest in the cockpit and was sitting within reach of controls....But now I getz it!!

Thanks guys...
 
Okay...got it!!!! Thanks yes, that is very clear...She only grabbed the yoke on the third or fourth bounce!
I assumed "sole manipulator" to be he/she who ranked the highest in the cockpit and was sitting within reach of controls....But now I getz it!!

Thanks guys...

Don't feel bad. A lot of CFIs and FAA people can't seem to get it either.

It's almost like there's a feeling of, "that's too simple. Regulations can't be that simple."
 
Don't feel bad. A lot of CFIs and FAA people can't seem to get it either.

It's almost like there's a feeling of, "that's too simple. Regulations can't be that simple."
I think there's a lot of truth to that. The FAA even made the language simpler a few years ago. I think there's this disease called "regulitis" which causes some people of average or better intelligence to lose basic reading comprehension skills when looking at regulations.
 
I think there's a lot of truth to that. The FAA even made the language simpler a few years ago. I think there's this disease called "regulitis" which causes some people of average or better intelligence to lose basic reading comprehension skills when looking at regulations.
Ugh. Like people who think that any change to the airplane is a major alteration...
 
I assumed "sole manipulator" to be he/she who ranked the highest in the cockpit and was sitting within reach of controls..

Any time you are are at least a sport pilot ASEL and are physically flying an airplane that only has one engine and doesn't float, you can LOG that time as PIC. It doesn't matter if you are not current, not have a medical, or if you have the endorsements for that plane.

To ACT AS the PIC you must be current, have a current medical, endorsements, ect.

In dual flying, the CFI is acting as the PIC for the entire flight because he is the one that is ultimately responsible this is why he logs all of the flight as PIC. A student is NOT the PIC on a dual flight, but if he is a rated pilot he can log the flight time that he is flying the plane as though he was PIC.


Consider the analogy of a ship and it's captain. The captain of the ship is the captain regardless of whether he is in the wheelhouse, or if he is asleep in his bunk. However the time that the first mate is in charge of the wheelhouse and the Captain is asleep, that man is actually steering the ship and is "effectively" the Captain for the moment and can log that time as such.
 
Right...but I have entries that are all over the map...Dual with PIC, Dual without PIC, So what's up there? It's mostly when Im under the hood that there is no PIC, but then when my BFR was overdue..NO PIC while doing the BFR? Im not likein this.

I am NOT the sole manipulator when there is a CFI next to me.......so why did they log PIC???
What a mess.

Unfortunately, the "mess" seems to be your understanding of the rules. You are not alone. A lot of people understand them pretty well now, primarily due to them being discussed ad nauseum on aviation boards, but for many there is still a conceptual difficulty - that the rules about "logging" PIC have nothing whatsoever to do with who is acting as the pilot in command on a flight (unless something in 61.51 specifically says otherwise).

"Sole manipulator of the controls" is just plain English - the only person who is physically touching the things that control whether the airplane goes left, right up and down and at what speeds. It has nothing to do with who has legal or moral responsibility for the flight or whether someone else in the plane has 20,000 hours more flight time than you do.

Yes you do get to log PIC when your FR is overdue. If you read 61.51 (not tyr to guess what it says) you'll see that the portion quoted by @msmspilot has no ifs, and or buts. If you have the applicable certificate level and aircraft rating and are the sole manipulator, you get t log the time as PIC. Period. No lack of currency, FR, medical, or anything else you can think of changes that.

I have a FAQ on my website on logging flight time. Perhaps if you read it along with the reg, you'll see what I mean.
 
In dual flying, the CFI is acting as the PIC for the entire flight because he is the one that is ultimately responsible this is why he logs all of the flight as PIC. A student is NOT the PIC on a dual flight, but if he is a rated pilot he can log the flight time that he is flying the plane as though he was PIC.

Actually, the CFI need not ACT as PIC. The student may act as PIC. The flight instructor may log PIC so long as he is instructing, and rated as PIC (need not be current, need not have a medical, etc). Just needs to be an authorized instructor (current CFI cert).

61.51 (D)(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.
 
Okay so now I need to go back and take a better look at what was totaled per page!!! I do appreciate this discussion.
I probably should have searched it first, but I really wanted to apply it to my situation, which in the end seems to be the norm!
Thanks to all you guys for helping. I almost feel like I can go and explain it to someone else. (almost!).
 
In dual flying, the CFI is acting as the PIC for the entire flight because he is the one that is ultimately responsible this is why he logs all of the flight as PIC. A student is NOT the PIC on a dual flight, but if he is a rated pilot he can log the flight time that he is flying the plane as though he was PIC.

I'd buy that, if the CFI was the was who is responsible for dinging the airplane when it happens. But I know where I flew, the renter was the one they were going to go after, as they signed for the airplane.
 
From what I've been reading and seeing from others more experienced than I, yes under 61.51 you can log your "sole manipulator" time while dual legally as PIC, and use it towards the requirements for a subsequent FAA rating like your ATP. What I gather from reading others experience getting interviewed and hired at the major airlines, however, is that they tend to not favorably view the 61.51 PIC time as "true" PIC for purposes of getting hired, only when you are the one signing for the plane, i.e. the 14 CFR 1.1 definition.

So what I have done, is I separate my Part 61.51 PIC from my Part 1.1 PIC time in my log book. I keep a running tally of both as TOTAL PIC, but can separate the two quickly if needed. My 61.51 PIC mainly comes from dual during instrument training, checkouts at new rental places, etc., while my 1.1 PIC comes from the flights I did without a CFI on board after my private.

Don't rely on your instructor to log your time correctly!! It's your logbook, you can log things how you see fit, it's just easier to understand how the FAA, airlines, etc. want to see your time earlier than later, so you don't have to scramble to redo everything when you have 3,000 hours to sort through.
 
Well para 3 is saying only when acting PIC so I don't see an ATP issue there.

At least CFI is clear.
 
Well para 3 is saying only when acting PIC so I don't see an ATP issue there.

At least CFI is clear.
If you are talking about the "acting as PIC" when more than one pilot is required, that covers the PIC/safety pilot in a Cessna 152, another category one hears does not particularly impress employers.

There's no "ATP issue" with any 61.51 PIC logging category. The only issue is how an employer might define the information it wants, which, is the employer's prerogative (so long as at least FAA minimums are met).
 
From what I've been reading and seeing from others more experienced than I, yes under 61.51 you can log your "sole manipulator" time while dual legally as PIC, and use it towards the requirements for a subsequent FAA rating like your ATP. What I gather from reading others experience getting interviewed and hired at the major airlines, however, is that they tend to not favorably view the 61.51 PIC time as "true" PIC for purposes of getting hired, only when you are the one signing for the plane, i.e. the 14 CFR 1.1 definition.

So what I have done, is I separate my Part 61.51 PIC from my Part 1.1 PIC time in my log book. I keep a running tally of both as TOTAL PIC, but can separate the two quickly if needed. My 61.51 PIC mainly comes from dual during instrument training, checkouts at new rental places, etc., while my 1.1 PIC comes from the flights I did without a CFI on board after my private.

Don't rely on your instructor to log your time correctly!! It's your logbook, you can log things how you see fit, it's just easier to understand how the FAA, airlines, etc. want to see your time earlier than later, so you don't have to scramble to redo everything when you have 3,000 hours to sort through.

With the exception of safety-pilot time-building, wouldn't you just subtract your post PPL dual-received from your total PIC to get the 1.1 PIC number? Am I thinking correctly that that gets you to the same number?

The reason I ask is because I have NOT logged it the way you are, but now I'm curious about what my actuals are and this seems like a way for me to figure it out.
 
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