PIC 121 explained

Maurus said:
Not sure if this is a jab at me or not.

In my short time in 121 I have learned a lot. I have learned that some captains are good people that I can learn from. Some captains are people that scare the hell out of me.

Others are people that haven't had much experience outside of flight school and 121 Jets. They could be great but ended up taking a shortcut somewhere and when some crutches go away they nearly fall apart.


I agree with this. Not all of it can be taught. Then again some people can easily adjust to a 2 crew environment and some others are just complete dicks regardless of training.

At XJT the CRM training lacked IMO. It didn't seem to be taken very seriously. Just have to hope you have someone good for IOE that can give some pointers and tell you what to expect on the line to help supplement that training.
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It's not a jab at you, at least it wasn't intended as such.

Good CRM skills are just like all other skills we acquire as we gain experience.

As a SIC, you not only see the good, bad and ugly for applying part 121, OpSpecs and company policy into a decision making tree, but also see how different styles of interaction affect crews and the flight in different ways.

No matter how awesome you are flying either as PIC, in a single pilot or a crew environment, under 135, to step into a 121 cockpit straight as PIC is a far different animal.

Just like everything else we do, there are definite similarities and transferable knowledge and experience. If you see no difference, you were at an amazing 135 job or you're not really trying to find the difference.

You don't NEED to be a terminal FO like some of our guys have been hammered into, but a couple years is fine for high-cycle operations.
 
Polar742 said:
It's not a jab at you, at least it wasn't intended as such.

Good CRM skills are just like all other skills we acquire as we gain experience.

As a SIC, you not only see the good, bad and ugly for applying part 121, OpSpecs and company policy into a decision making tree, but also see how different styles of interaction affect crews and the flight in different ways.

No matter how awesome you are flying either as PIC, in a single pilot or a crew environment, under 135, to step into a 121 cockpit straight as PIC is a far different animal.

Just like everything else we do, there are definite similarities and transferable knowledge and experience. If you see no difference, you were at an amazing 135 job or you're not really trying to find the difference.

You don't NEED to be a terminal FO like some of our guys have been hammered into, but a couple years is fine for high-cycle operations.
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If you don't learn something new (even if it's "what not to do") on a frequent basis as an FO in a high-cycle operation, you're doin' it wrong.

(I mean, I learn a lot of "soft skills" things at work - most along the lines of what Polar is describing.)
 
Autothrust Blue said:
If you don't learn something new (even if it's "what not to do") on a frequent basis as an FO in a high-cycle operation, you're doin' it wrong.

(I mean, I learn a lot of "soft skills" things at work - most along the lines of what Polar is describing.)
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The learning doesn't just happen as an FO. PIC's are learning everyday, yes, even from FO's. The assumption that the line between learning and teaching is hard and exists between the left and right seats is nonsense, but this rule reeks of it.
 
JCF1974 said:
The learning doesn't just happen as an FO. PIC's are learning everyday, yes, even from FO's. The assumption that the line between learning and teaching is hard and exists between the left and right seats is nonsense, but this rule reeks of it.
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Not to meantion that you could go fly 1000 hours for say.. Cape Air in a 402 as pic, and then be qualified to fly anything as a 121 PIC. But 10,000 hours AS THE ACTUAL PIC of a CL65? Nope, doesn't count.
 
Polar742 said:
It's not a jab at you, at least it wasn't intended as such.

Good CRM skills are just like all other skills we acquire as we gain experience.

As a SIC, you not only see the good, bad and ugly for applying part 121, OpSpecs and company policy into a decision making tree, but also see how different styles of interaction affect crews and the flight in different ways.

No matter how awesome you are flying either as PIC, in a single pilot or a crew environment, under 135, to step into a 121 cockpit straight as PIC is a far different animal.

Just like everything else we do, there are definite similarities and transferable knowledge and experience. If you see no difference, you were at an amazing 135 job or you're not really trying to find the difference.

You don't NEED to be a terminal FO like some of our guys have been hammered into, but a couple years is fine for high-cycle operations.
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You're right, there's LESS to worry about. :)
 
Polar742 said:
Or more areas you need to double check for mistakes you didn't make.

But, as usual, I'm just flailing in the dark...
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Nah, I understand what you're getting at. I'm a proponent of getting all kinds of experience. I just think this is nit picking a bit.
 
JCF1974 said:
The learning doesn't just happen as an FO. PIC's are learning everyday, yes, even from FO's.
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As they should. I always loved flying with guys right out of training. As I was on a fairly new fleet type for the company at the time, things were always changing and the guys right off OE seemed to have the latest and greatest information that allowed those of us out on the line to look at things and think about things from a different perspective.
 
UAL747400 said:
Nah, I understand what you're getting at. I'm a proponent of getting all kinds of experience. I just think this is nit picking a bit.
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If you think that, that's totally fine.

121 is a game of nuance and nits. That is how you avoid having to answer questions by the CP, FAA or repeatedly file ASAP. Tittle the I's and cross the t's.

Like many on here, I've done 121 a long time. I've worked with new hires and upgrade at an entry to 121, and my current shop. Both as a line pilot and I'm the training process. I'm here to state that prior experience really isn't as important as you think it is after a couple years on line. Going to somewhere that has fast and furious upgrades? Sure previous crew command time is great. 2 or more years in the right seat on a regular line is sufficient in a typical short-haul 121 operation to prepare every FO to be a competent PIC.

YMMV
 
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