PHX Engine Core Cooling

///AMG said:
That sh** is automatic in the MAXXX with LEAPs. No telling how long you are gonna be staring at "motoring" on the engine display during start. Its a great feature when you are stuck behind one in the alley, that just pushed back. It can be for way more than a minute depending on what the computer thinks.
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Beats how we used to deal with it on the Jetsream 31s. FO would go out after every flight and pull the prop through 20 blades. That drew cool air through to cool the shaft. (The Garretts were geared turboprops)
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
I don’t remember if I made the same mistake or not when I was an FO but I think I could easily do it, if I was trying to go fast.

Whenever there is a bleed configuration issue I always remind my FOs to get the checklist out and where to find it on the iPad. I also let them know it doesn’t need to be reconfigured until 17K. So they should be deliberate but not rush and just follow the checklist.


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Our bleed reconfigure (if configured to bleeds off) is in the climb checklist, and it’s just a “C” pattern to configure to bleeds off, or a reverse “C” pattern to reconfigure the bleeds on. For us, we do enough bleeds off takeoffs due to some of the shorter fields we go into, that it’s just a matter of being more common of a thing rather than more seldom of a thing. So people are very used to the switch flipping to configure or deconfigure. If one isn’t used to doing it often, it can get messed up kind of easy. So there is that.
 
MikeD said:
Out bleed reconfigure (if configured to bleeds off) is in the climb checklist, and it’s just a “C” pattern to configure to bleeds off, or a reverse “C” pattern to reconfigure the bleeds on. For us, we do enough bleeds off takeoffs due to some of the shorter fields we go into, that it’s just a matter of being more common of a thing rather than more seldom of a thing. So people are very used to the switch flipping to configure or deconfigure. It one isn’t used to doing it often, it can get messed up kind of easy. So there is that.
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Yeah I was trying to stay away from C and reverse C....

I like checklists and don't like doing stuff from memory because I don't like doing stuff incorrectly. I find its proper to do something we do infrequently, with a checklist. I guess with the 200 and 400 bleeds off was common. I was in the first class to not be trained on that aircraft. I've only flown the NG 700, 800, 900 and MAX9. Bleeds off is rare. Summertime, hot, high, tailwind etc only. I can totally see why one would know the procedure by heart and not mess it up if they did it all the time. However, that isn't my experience and it's certainly not my FOs experience. So I lean pretty heavily on the checklists.

I was never able to finish the checklist when I was an FO. The Captain would be hand flying and at usually 2000 AGL or less they'd get sick of me going through the checklist and just lean over madly flip switches and just say "You see! Ya just gotta reverse C!" In fact I remarked to my instructor during captain training in the procedures trainer that when I used the checklist (which is encouraged by training) to re establish the engine bleed air to the packs, it was the first time I had been able to finish the checklist in 5 years at my current employer.

I'm not super studly I guess but the limitation is 17,000 feet to run the checklist. It's encouraged by the good instructors in training and I have never dropped the masks on the passengers... So I encourage checklist use as a captain and I even remind my FOs they have plenty of time to accomplish the checklist whenever they'd like. Until 17K feet.
 
T/O w/FSII said:
G-5/550 is 30 seconds at max spin if between 20 minutes and 4 hours on shut down.


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G280 had to be dry motored if it was between 15-180 mins since last shut down. You then had to wait 3 minutes after dry cranking to start but no more then 40 mins. What a cluster


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BEEF SUPREME said:
Yeah I was trying to stay away from C and reverse C....

I like checklists and don't like doing stuff from memory because I don't like doing stuff incorrectly. I find its proper to do something we do infrequently, with a checklist. I guess with the 200 and 400 bleeds off was common. I was in the first class to not be trained on that aircraft. I've only flown the NG 700, 800, 900 and MAX9. Bleeds off is rare. Summertime, hot, high, tailwind etc only. I can totally see why one would know the procedure by heart and not mess it up if they did it all the time. However, that isn't my experience and it's certainly not my FOs experience. So I lean pretty heavily on the checklists.

I was never able to finish the checklist when I was an FO. The Captain would be hand flying and at usually 2000 AGL or less they'd get sick of me going through the checklist and just lean over madly flip switches and just say "You see! Ya just gotta reverse C!" In fact I remarked to my instructor during captain training in the procedures trainer that when I used the checklist (which is encouraged by training) to re establish the engine bleed air to the packs, it was the first time I had been able to finish the checklist in 5 years at my current employer.

I'm not super studly I guess but the limitation is 17,000 feet to run the checklist. It's encouraged by the good instructors in training and I have never dropped the masks on the passengers... So I encourage checklist use as a captain and I even remind my FOs they have plenty of time to accomplish the checklist whenever they'd like. Until 17K feet.
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If it makes you feel good, the one bleed off I've done in the "wild" (SAN, warm day, heavy 9ER going to the islands), the guy I was flying with was totally on board with me running the supplemental checklist. I very much took my time so as not to break anything. I agree with you and Mike though, those that are familiar with the C and reverse C (or just people who have been around longer than me), probably don't need a checklist to cover what is a pretty common sense procedure. I will say that I realized I understand that stupid panel more than I thought when I had a guy shut down #2 on the taxi out when it became apparent it would be a long wait. I'm pretty sure there isn't a procedure written for that, but I thought my way through it ok I think. Or maybe there is a procedure, and I just figured it out anyway, in ignorance :)
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
Yeah I was trying to stay away from C and reverse C....

I like checklists and don't like doing stuff from memory because I don't like doing stuff incorrectly. I find its proper to do something we do infrequently, with a checklist. I guess with the 200 and 400 bleeds off was common. I was in the first class to not be trained on that aircraft. I've only flown the NG 700, 800, 900 and MAX9. Bleeds off is rare. Summertime, hot, high, tailwind etc only. I can totally see why one would know the procedure by heart and not mess it up if they did it all the time. However, that isn't my experience and it's certainly not my FOs experience. So I lean pretty heavily on the checklists.

I was never able to finish the checklist when I was an FO. The Captain would be hand flying and at usually 2000 AGL or less they'd get sick of me going through the checklist and just lean over madly flip switches and just say "You see! Ya just gotta reverse C!" In fact I remarked to my instructor during captain training in the procedures trainer that when I used the checklist (which is encouraged by training) to re establish the engine bleed air to the packs, it was the first time I had been able to finish the checklist in 5 years at my current employer.

I'm not super studly I guess but the limitation is 17,000 feet to run the checklist. It's encouraged by the good instructors in training and I have never dropped the masks on the passengers... So I encourage checklist use as a captain and I even remind my FOs they have plenty of time to accomplish the checklist whenever they'd like. Until 17K feet.
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For as rare of a procedure as it is in the NG, using a checklist keeps it safe. For a C pattern, that doesn’t necessarily mean to do it quick, as some of those Capt’s want to do, its only a pattern that still needs to be done methodically and thought put into every switch movement. Even rushing through the pattern, can easily lead to mistakes.

Our old ass 737s and some of the small airfields we go into and out of, bleeds off is just a very common thing, as opposed to the newer 737s where it’s not. So using a checklist for it is certainly some good insurance in that case indeed. Whichever method results in doing it right and not rushed, works.
 
MikeD said:
For as rare of a procedure as it is in the NG, using a checklist keeps it safe. For a C pattern, that doesn’t necessarily mean to do it quick, as some of those Capt’s want to do, its only a pattern that still needs to be done methodically and thought put into every switch movement. Even rushing through the pattern, can easily lead to mistakes.

Our old ass 737s and some of the small airfields we go into and out of, bleeds off is just a very common thing, as opposed to the newer 737s where it’s not. So using a checklist for it is certainly some good insurance in that case indeed. Whichever method results in doing it right and not rushed, works.
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Can’t say how much it appreciate this enough.


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Pretty much every takeoff on my airplane is a bleeds/packs off takeoff. However, you just let the Air System Controller handle it. As soon as the throttles come up for takeoff, it switches everything off and then re engages everything in the climb. Easy peasy for almost 40 year-old technology. (No more 10s, so it's rare we have an Air Manual situation).

And for those complaining about starting a MAX and a NEO, I laugh in starting 3 Pratts. I have enough time to make and drink a cup of coffee during engine start.
 
Inverted25 said:
G280 had to be dry motored if it was between 15-180 mins since last shut down. You then had to wait 3 minutes after dry cranking to start but no more then 40 mins. What a cluster


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That has the AS907 aka HTF7000 engines, doesn’t it?
 
ZapBrannigan said:
Beats how we used to deal with it on the Jetsream 31s. FO would go out after every flight and pull the prop through 20 blades. That drew cool air through to cool the shaft. (The Garretts were geared turboprops)
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At CVG, used to see Jetstream’s taking a victory lap after landing.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
Hot fans need fans.
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And so on... and so on... Dominus, Amen.

Per the other meaning, sad that nobody is cheering for the airlines these days. Maybe SWA was onto something when they dressed their "Flight Attendants" as cheerleaders...??
 
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