PHX cessna crash at Glendale Airport

Kristie

Kristie

Mama Bear....
Staff member
Anyone hear about this this morning?

Guy had just bought a plane from someone (an old cessna apparently) and went to fly it back to Idaho.. 10 minutes from buying it, he takes off and it goes down... the guy (been a pilot for 70 years) is ok but the plane is not.

can't find an article anywhere on the net but i'm wondering.. in a situation such as this.. whose responsible for the fixes? the old owner because he sold a defective plane or the new owner since he's the new owner?

would the old owner be liable if this guy had been killed? luckily, he wasn't.
 
PIC ... once you start that engine it's your a$$ on the line.

Granted, if the old owner went through ovious steps to hide stuff then part of the blame will be shared but all too often people will buy an airplane with a "paper anual" and most of the time they just get hit with a large repair bill come next anual, the unlucky ones have something like this happen.

Inthe end regardless of the circumstances leading up to it when he climbed in an took off he was saying that in his opinion the aircraft was airworthy so anything that happens is now his responsibility.
 
There's a SLIM chance the other guy could be liable. If he withhelf information or stated that the airplane was capable of doing things it wasn't, he could be held liable IF those things were the cause of the crash. Anything else, it isn't proximate cause of the damages, therefore he's clear. More than likely it's going solely on the new owner's head.
 
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www.AZCentral.com - A small plane crashed Thursday morning while taking off from Glendale Municipal Airport.
The pilot suffered a minor cut while his son escaped injury.
Deputy Glendale Fire Chief Elio Pompa says the pilot told firefighters that he felt the single-engine plane lose power as he was taking off. Then as the plane touched back down, he said, the landing collapsed and the plane flipped over.
Pompa says the pilot said he had purchased the plane 10 minutes prior to the accident and was heading back to Idaho.

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Reminds me of one of the FBO's I worked for. More than once I saw the salesmen stand on the ramp with their fingers crossed as a "customer" took off in a piece of junk they had sold him.
 
Doug,

You remember that piece of junk Aerostar 600 that crashed after takeoff at PRC, forced landing just on the west side of Willow Creek Road after both engines quit? The plane had a iffy airworthiness cert, registration was expired, the landing gear were braced down (could not retract on purpose), and the pilot disappeared just after the first spectators arrived....last seen getting in a passing taxicab. I pulled up to the scene about 5 minutes after it happened. The plane sat in that field about 100 yards from Willow Creek Road for about 3 days.

http://www2.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X14916&key=1
 
What exactly is a "Paper Annual"???

A&P's go through a lot of time and training to earn an IA rating on their certificates. I've never met an IA yet that would risk peoples lives, his career, and his integrity, to help a customer sell an un-airworthy aircraft. Appendix B to Part 43 is very clear about what must be inspected during an annual inspection. Any un-airworthy items MUST be recorded in the logbooks and an un-airworthy entry is made, and the owner must be informed by written notice of the defects. The A&P can only recommend that non-airworthiness related defects be repaired.

Most purchasers will conduct some form of pre-buy inspection which should include a thorough review of the logbooks and at least a visual inspection of the airframe and engine, including cutting the oil filter, and running a compression check, at the very least. As long as the previous owner has dislosed any KNOWN defects that would render the aircraft un-airworthy, he is not responsible for the aircraft after the sale.

The A&P/IA that conducted the last inspection would remain liable, for one year, for any defects that would have rendered the aircraft un-airworthy, if the defects existed at the time of the last annual inspection. Any mechanic that performs work on an airplane can be held liable for his or her work, even after the aircraft changes hands.
 
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What exactly is a "Paper Annual"???



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Pencil-whipped, I imagine.
 
Anyone that knows of an IA that pencil whips Annuals should contact their FSDO immediately. It is an extremely serious moral and criminal offense. Most mechanics take their responsability extremely seriously! I know I sure do.
 
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Anyone that knows of an IA that pencil whips Annuals should contact their FSDO immediately. It is an extremely serious moral and criminal offense. Most mechanics take their responsability very seriously!

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Definately agree. I'm in no way saying that this happened in this case (no way I could know), just defining what I think others mean by the term "paper annual".

There's probably a number of things that could've happened to the engine in this case. Could've happened enroute, could've happened on takeoff from the next airport. Anything from a blown cylinder to bad avgas to water. Who knows, right now?
 
Thanks Mike, I know what you meant!

I get uptight when I hear people suggest that mechanics do things like "paper annuals". I'm sure it happens but it's pretty rare.

There's no way to know for sure what is happening inside an engine without splitting the case. The darn things can fail 5 minutes after they roll out the maintenance hanger door .
 
They're out there. Maybe not many, but I've seen enough "borderline" stuff go on that it isn't much of a leap to believe that there are some nasty planes out there with "Paper Annuals".

I was looking at buying a twin comanche one time. It had a fresh annual, but from someone not directly on the field where it was for sale. (No particular concern with that since it is a small field and there are plenty of valid reasons why someone would take a plane off-field for an annual.) It just so happened that I knew the only mechanic/FBO owner on the field and I had a lot of respect for his judgement. I talked to him "unofficially", and he told me that he was asked to do the annual, but after discussing some of the discrepancies with the owner, and the owner's insistence that those particular items were "within limits", my aquaintance declined to sign off on the annual without fixing said discrepancies. So, how did the plane come to have a fresh annual?

Granted, some of the items were open to interpretation and I would not consider any of them extremely hazardous to airworthiness, but they screamed out that this was a plane to be very, very cautious of. Needless to say I did not buy that plane.

Did the second mechanic "Paper Annual" the plane? Probably not. I would sure hate to be the owner of the plane at the next annual though, when I find out that a couple of cylinders were out of spec on compression, and the stabilator has some movement when lifting on the tip, requiring an expensive rebuild (specs call for "no movement" if I remember the conversation correctly). Un-airworthy? Depends on who you ask. Sometimes if you ask enough people you'll get the answer you want.

Other topic; I think we might be suprised how many planes are purchased without a pre-buy inspection. No, I don't have any figures, just second hand horror stories.



<In reviewing my post I see a lot of anectdotal and second-hand evidence, so take it for what it's worth. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif>
 
And who's to say that the a/c owner didn't doctor the logs without the knowledge of an A&P? Rule number one in buying an a/c is have a pre-purchase inspection done by either a mechanic you know or one you know through reputation. Rule number two, see rule number one.
 
There's a difference between what happens and what people say. I'm not saying there are a lot of mechanics who do this (or owners who "force" or accept this) but it does happen.

And in this particular instance who knows what happens the pilot simply could have forgot to fill the gas tanks for all we know ...
 
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And who's to say that the a/c owner didn't doctor the logs without the knowledge of an A&P? Rule number one in buying an a/c is have a pre-purchase inspection done by either a mechanic you know or one you know through reputation. Rule number two, see rule number one.

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Exactly.

And paper annuals do happen....depends on the situation. For instance, if an IA knows a particular pilot to be a meticulous maintainer of their aircraft, they might well agree to do a cursory look-over of the aircraft and then sign the logs based on the owner's assurance that the necessary work had been completed.

And remember....there is a very important point to be taken into consideration....it is an annual INSPECTION....not an annual FIX EVERYTHING. It is possible that an IA went over the aircraft with a fine-toothed comb. He or she, as IA, has the right to list certain airworthiness concerns that must be fixed prior to resuming flight. But, the way I understand it, at that point the ball is thrown back to the owner. If the owner does not follow through with the listed repairs then the liability issue goes to them, or whoever is operating the aircraft. The IA would bear no responsibility as he/she had done their required part.
 
Doctoring logs is difficult to get away with if the mechanics are logging and signing off work properly. The owner's entries would be pretty obvious, especially without a mechanic's certificate number and proper reference to the FAA approved maintenace or repair data.

FAR 43.11 (5) clearly lays out the entry that must be made in the logs when an aircraft is found un-airworthy during an Annual Inspection, and the entry leaves no doubt as to condition. In most cases the tolerances for wear and condition are NOT arbitrary. There are clear guidelines in the form of Appendix B to Part 43, the manufacturer's manuals and service bulletins, and Airworthiness Directives. Owner maintenance has nothing to do with an annual and most IA's that want to stay out of prison are even more careful about annuals when they are aware that potentially unauthorized work has been performed on an aircraft.

As a mechanic, I certainly would not risk my license, my family's financial well-being, my reputation, and the life of anyone flying the airplane under my signature for the next year, just to make a quick buck from a customer that is selling his airplane anyway. It's kind of hard to renew an IA each year with a reputation for conducting false inspections.
 
There are dishonest people in every profession, doctors, lawyers, police, pilots, etc., etc...

Dishonest professionals tend to not last very long, ESPECIALLY in a business as small, and close knit, as General Aviation. Mechanics place their signature and certicate # after every log book entry we make. We take a great deal of pride in our work. I treat every aircraft as if my own family will be flying in it.

Once again, if anyone has direct knowledge of dishonest or unsafe practices by a mechanic, one quick call to the local FSDO safety inspector will take care of the situation, pronto! There are no grey areas when it comes to maintenace requirements and mechanic's responsabilities.
 
You wanna talk pencil-whipping, let's talk real estate appraisers. Appraisers who don't consistently over-value properties stop getting business from realtors, who get paid based on what the property sells for. Note that both the buyer's AND seller's agents have the same vested interest in the highest sales price possible. Talk about a conflict of interest!
 
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