Pay rate question

vheissu

vheissu

Well-Known Member
I tried a search but couldn't really come up with what I was looking for. The aircraft is undecided as of now, but will most likely be a 414 or similar. Possibly a Conquest. What is considered an acceptable rate for being on call, and also managing the aircraft full time? Pretty considerable amount of flying. I have heard anything from $150 a day to $3000 a week. Thanks for the help.

-Jason
 
I should add.. it could be all the way up to a B-90 or similar. Basically the owner wants to haul around 8 people a thousand or so miles, with occasional trips further than 1000nm.
 
vheissu said:
I should add.. it could be all the way up to a B-90 or similar. Basically the owner wants to haul around 8 people a thousand or so miles, with occasional trips further than 1000nm.
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Im sure he knows (or you told him) that a 414 will not fit that mission.

Even if it is a ram with the higher gross weight with full fuel you only have about a 600 lb payload including pilot, pax and bags.

Youll need full fuel to go 930 miles no wind with VFR reserves.

As for the rate..400 a day to fly it and 500 a day if you are also managing it.
 
if you are also going to manage it, it should not be a contract job. You should get sallary and have set days off. I would say $50,000 a year minimum depending on where you live.
 
SIUav8er said:
if you are also going to manage it, it should not be a contract job. You should get sallary and have set days off. I would say $50,000 a year minimum depending on where you live.
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I was thinking about $30k more than that.

...to start.

-mini
 
:yeahthat:

If you are creating a flight department, you had better get some money for it. Especially if single pilot.
 
SIUav8er said:
if you are also going to manage it, it should not be a contract job. You should get sallary and have set days off. I would say $50,000 a year minimum depending on where you live.
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I agree this should be a salary position. If the owner does not want to pay you a salary I would try to figure out how much time you will have to put into managing the aircraft...keeping maint logs updated...plates and charts..GPS database..cleaning..etc...and ask for a lump sum or quarterly payment for those duties according to what you think your time is worth. I work strictly on a contract basis for a few different companies and fly Malibus and Seneca and I charge $350/day but I also live in rual MN so I would say you should be getting $450/day. Salary wise I believe 50k a year would probably be inline.
 
You need to think of managing the flight department as a full time job. You'll probably spend more than 40 hours a week doing stuff like logbooks, scheduling and forecasting maintenance (including negotiating prices for maintenance), negotiating fuel prices, working out ground transportation and hotels, cleaning the plane, stocking the plane, updating your jepps, flying for business, maintenance flights, training/recurrent, etc.

$50,000 works out to be about $24/hr. I would think that your time doing all of that is worth a touch more than $24/hr.

$80,000 works out to about $38/hr. That's where I'd start and go from there.

Ask yourself this. If you were the owner of this company buying this plane to save time (it's not to save "money"...if that were the case, they'd drive, take greyhound or an airline) and produce revenue for your business, is your time as the owner worth $24/hr or closer to $40/hr+++?

-mini
 
minitour said:
$80,000 works out to about $38/hr. That's where I'd start and go from there.

Ask yourself this. If you were the owner of this company buying this plane to save time (it's not to save "money"...if that were the case, they'd drive, take greyhound or an airline) and produce revenue for your business, is your time as the owner worth $24/hr or closer to $40/hr+++?

-mini
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All valid points but in todays market I would venture to guess that if he approaches them with that number he will probably be 30K off the mark of what they had figured.

Not everyone who buys an airplane is rolling in the dough. Sure if they own a Falcon 900 or GIV then I would certainly hope they can afford to pay what it takes to run such an operation.

A cabin class piston twin does not fit into that same category. It will be a difficult task to drag the money deserved out of an employer in this market.
 
USMC-SSGT said:
A cabin class piston twin does not fit into that same category. It will be a difficult task to drag the money deserved out of an employer in this market.
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vheissu said:
I should add.. it could be all the way up to a B-90 or similar. Basically the owner wants to haul around 8 people a thousand or so miles, with occasional trips further than 1000nm.
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I don;t think there is a piston twin on the market that can complete this job. He will end up with a B90 or B200. A PC-12 might be able to fit the mission as well.
 
USMC-SSGT said:
All valid points but in todays market I would venture to guess that if he approaches them with that number he will probably be 30K off the mark of what they had figured.

Not everyone who buys an airplane is rolling in the dough. Sure if they own a Falcon 900 or GIV then I would certainly hope they can afford to pay what it takes to run such an operation.
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1) If you can't afford a proper salary for an aircraft manager, you can't afford the plane. You could hire a person to do nothing but fly it for probably $40k. Guess what you're going to pay an FBO to manage it...not $10k/year.

and 2)...

Maurus said:
I don;t think there is a piston twin on the market that can complete this job.
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What he said. :)

-mini
 
USMC-SSGT said:
All valid points but in todays market I would venture to guess that if he approaches them with that number he will probably be 30K off the mark of what they had figured.

Not everyone who buys an airplane is rolling in the dough. Sure if they own a Falcon 900 or GIV then I would certainly hope they can afford to pay what it takes to run such an operation.

A cabin class piston twin does not fit into that same category. It will be a difficult task to drag the money deserved out of an employer in this market.
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exactly my reasoning. 3 years ago, sure ask for $80k why not? but today, around $50k to manage a 414 or similar aircraft is more realistic... just DONT do it as a contractor! that was the biggest thing I was suggesting.

That is so true about aircraft owners not always being super rich, especially when you start looking at the piston twin market. They are looking at a 414 cause they cant afford to burn Jet-A!
 
minitour said:
You need to think of managing the flight department as a full time job. You'll probably spend more than 40 hours a week doing stuff like logbooks, scheduling and forecasting maintenance (including negotiating prices for maintenance), negotiating fuel prices, working out ground transportation and hotels, cleaning the plane, stocking the plane, updating your jepps, flying for business, maintenance flights, training/recurrent, etc.
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Mini is dead on with this. The management side of an aircraft takes much more time and effort than you may think to do it properly. Without question it is a full time job, and then some.

By way of comparison, I manage and fly a Piper Malibu Matrix (single-engine piston, single pilot). I'm salary, just under 60k in NW Ohio (rather low cost of living area). I also have up to a 5k bonus per year in my work contract. We fly about 2-3 trips per week on average, for a total of about 400-450 flight hours per year. I estimate that I still put in between 40-60 hours per week regardless of flight hours, keeping ahead of all of the items Mini mentioned above. The advantage is that I can do a large amount of that work from home when not flying, so I have the nice fringe benefit of setting my own hours to a certain degree on non-flying days. You should expect to do better than those numbers for a piston twin, and certainly much better for a turbine twin.

Edit: In case it helps - I had no prior experience managing aircraft when I took this position. All my previous experience was flight instruction and Part 135 charter piloting. Total flight time when I was hired was probably around 3200 hours, and I'm currently just shy of 4000.

Do not short change yourself. Yes, this is a tough economy, but that's relatively temporary. My dentist doesn't charge me less because the economy's down, and you shouldn't either. And the last thing you want to do is lock yourself into a low salary because "times are tough", and you're still stuck with a low salary when times get good again.
 
AirmetTango said:
Do not short change yourself. Yes, this is a tough economy, but that's relatively temporary. My dentist doesn't charge me less because the economy's down, and you shouldn't either. And the last thing you want to do is lock yourself into a low salary because "times are tough", and you're still stuck with a low salary when times get good again.
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Exactly right!

I hate when I hear about people taking low jobs "because of the economy"

Believe me when I say your pay won't go up when "the economy" gets better. So don't subject yourself to crappy pay unless you plan on looking for a higher paying job when the economy gets better.

Good luck with that though, because a potential employer will see that you took a low paying job and are moving up and will likely not hire you because you were disloyal, and will likely do the same to them if you find a higher paying job.
 
hey, insist on 80k, dont get the job -OR- take a more realistic salary and get the job! thats the way I look at it. Besides, I dont think taking something less than 80k is short changing yourself at all!
 
I always was told to take advice from people in the position you want to be in. The guys currently managing aircraft (which doesn't include me...so don't listen to me!!! I'm just a lowly 135 contract pilot and freelance flight instructor.) would be the ones to talk to.

Seriously.

-mini
 
SIUav8er said:
That is so true about aircraft owners not always being super rich, especially when you start looking at the piston twin market. They are looking at a 414 cause they cant afford to burn Jet-A!
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Food for thought: I agree that owners of piston twins are not necessarily super rich, but there is a difference between an owner who is being careful with his money, and an owner who is cheap. The former recognizes and respects value and is willing to pay for that value, the other cuts corners in the interest of saving a buck. Owners who are careful with their money sometimes buy pistons because they recognize it has a more efficient operating cost for their mission profile. Owners who are cheap shouldn't purchase an aircraft at all.

Regardless, as the chief pilot/aircraft manager of another persons aircraft, your ultimate job description boils down to two simple but important priorities:

1) As pilot, ensure the complete safety of yourself and all passengers (which likely includes his family members as well as employees) at all times to the absolute best of your ability.

2) As aircraft manager, ensure that the airplane is maintained in top condition to successfully achieve priority 1 above. A nice fringe benefit is that the value of his aircraft investment is protected with excellent maintenance.

Hopefully you have an owner who understands that the salary he pays you is intended to purchase safety, not just to fill a seat with someone who can manipulate the controls of an aircraft. I truly question the priorities of an owner who is not willing to pay top dollar for the person who is directly responsible for his safety, and the safety of his family, friends, and co-workers. Will he be willing to pay to ensure that maintenance issues are addressed in a proper and timely fashion? Does he really understand what is necessary to stay safe in aviation? Does he realize he's paying me to have the guts to stand my ground when the weather conditions mean he won't make his meeting with investors in another city on time? Remember, the type of aircraft owner you work for can have a very real impact on your longevity.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that business is all about getting top value for the least cost. We can talk in cliches and say "you can't put a price on safety", but the reality is that no owner wants to overpay for a chief pilot/aircraft manager. It's a delicate balance, but the type of aircraft owner you want to work for is the one that recognizes that he shouldn't underpay either.

SIUav8er said:
hey, insist on 80k, dont get the job -OR- take a more realistic salary and get the job! thats the way I look at it. Besides, I dont think taking something less than 80k is short changing yourself at all!
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Yes, the OP should insist on a realistic, fair salary, and he'll have to decide for himself what that number is. But we are not talking about "just flying a plane" here...managing the airplane is a genuine game changer. Do not underestimate the level of work involved to manage the plane properly...and do not undercut yourself because of a perceived decrease in the value of your skills because the economy is bad.
 
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