Pay 2 Fly program

K

Kels Hughes

New Member
Hey guys...

I was having lunch with some guys who were finishing their CPLs and they were talking about Pay to Fly programs where they are paying to do a TR and then 500 Line Training to get some "time in type" and then taking overseas contracts to get working instead of becoming a CFI. Now I realize this is a taboo subject for a lot of people on here based on what I have seen, however I have seen some CFI's with 2000 hours having troubles getting into a CRJ with the regionals. Has anyone had a good experience with any of these programs or heard anything good about a program? Please if you think they are "bad for the industry" I don't need a response, I am just looking for anything positive or negative that people have had. Thanks.
 
When I got my CPL I seriously considered one of these programs. With only 250 hrs and an FAA CPL you won't get into anything big such as an A320 or 737. Most of those require a JAA CPL. If you want to do it in a turbo prop look into http://www.eaglejet.net they are the main company that does P2F in the USA.

As I said I seriously considered it. I finally decided to get my CFI am very happy I decided to. Not only do I find it rewarding, I am getting a lot of hours and getting paid (verses paying to fly). With the eagle jet option you will be only flying 50 or so hours a month, not to mention they kick you to the side of the road when your program is finished. If you are a new CPL and want to do the P2F it will cost you around $55K to get to ATP mins, then if you get an interview with a regional at 1500 hrs good luck explaining how you got in the right seat of a B1900 at 250 hrs. They will know exactly how. Also P2F doesn't provide and hotels during training or on overnight trips, so plan on dishing out a lot of money for hotels on top of the $55K

I would strongly advise you to get your CFI. American Flyers has a good program where you can get it for around $3500. Why not get your CFI, see how that goes then if it doesn't work out relook at the P2F. I would risk the $3500 for a CFI before dropping money to a P2F. I was in your same situation, and am happy I went the CFI route. If you do the CFI, start teaching and hate it, P2F programs like Eagle Jet will still be around....
 
I know if you do the eagle jet program and end up at a certain 135 cargo operator, you won't be treated very well. Especially if you plan on staying in the states.
 
@Kels Hughes If your friends have 2000 hours and can't get on with the regionals there might be something in their background they are not telling you about.
Pay 2 play is not the way to go. Just look at the folks who are trying to change the reputation Silver still has because of their previous pay to play program (or still has, I don't know)
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
Well sometimes a reason to not do something is more than just an experience. There are very sound logical reasons to not pay for a job.
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Well, I guess it depends on how you look at it, I am viewing it as an alternative to being a CFI and thats why I appreciate the message from Miked. You are going to pay your dues one way or another in aviation, truth is that if I go live overseas for 10 years to fly heavies instead of doing several years teaching than going to a CJ/RJ. I don't really see that as 'paying for a job' but more like paying for an internship to gain work experience. No different than a doctor paying 300k and then making 40k a year working 12 hour days. I am not sure I am going to do it, but more like a consideration as an alternative to the CFI route.
 
I don't recommend it. If you are the "customer" its hard for a company to hold you to the same standard as the other pilots... if the customers keep getting busts on their record a business wouldn't be able to keep the Pay to Play viable or profitable due to a lack of customers. Make sense? If you can't maintain the same standards how does that make you a better pilot? I admit I looked into these programs when I first got out of school but it isn't necessary... sometimes you just have to hustle and remember that no job, whether it be as a ramper, cleaner, dispatcher, or gate agent, is beneath you in an effort to get to your goal. I started as a ramper/blue juice bandit and now I am a professional pilot. Being part of this community is a fantastic resource to draw from and to be part of... hope you find the reasoning you are looking for.
 
The only CFIs I know who arent at the regionals arent there because they make better money with a better QOL. Most are holding out for corporate gigs or something else. The 2000 TT CFIs who are having a hard time getting on with a regional are obviously doing something wrong. Id not take advice from them if I were you. What is the rush anyway? I dont get it.
 
Kels Hughes said:
I don't really see that as 'paying for a job' but more like paying for an internship to gain work experience.
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First of all, internships are either paid or unpaid. YOU never pay to do an internship. That is just paying for a job.

The second issue is that if you pay to do a job that normally a company would have to pay somebody else to do, you are completely screwing over another pilot who would have been hired (and paid) to do that job if you hadn't volunteered your time and money to do it instead. You are DIRECTLY impacting another pilot's ability to earn a living, and that's just wrong.

Don't be that guy.
 
Kels Hughes said:
Hey guys...

I was having lunch with some guys who were finishing their CPLs and they were talking about Pay to Fly programs where they are paying to do a TR and then 500 Line Training to get some "time in type" and then taking overseas contracts to get working instead of becoming a CFI. Now I realize this is a taboo subject for a lot of people on here based on what I have seen, however I have seen some CFI's with 2000 hours having troubles getting into a CRJ with the regionals. Has anyone had a good experience with any of these programs or heard anything good about a program? Please if you think they are "bad for the industry" I don't need a response, I am just looking for anything positive or negative that people have had. Thanks.
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All those beat down CFI's who are having trouble getting into a regionals right now will one day end up on a hiring board. What are they going to think about the guy in front of them who paid to do the job they were trying to get paid to do?
 
Kels Hughes said:
Well, I guess it depends on how you look at it, I am viewing it as an alternative to being a CFI
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Well, if you have money to blow, why dont you just rent an aztec to 1500 hours? Because the pay is bigger flying heavies over an RJ is what I would expect your response to be. So ultimately what I see is you're looking to make the most pay as quick as you can. Aren't we all?

It took me 12 years to make 6 figures and that was by luck.

Do some research on Asian Airlines and how their culture affects CRM, the decision making process and ultimately the role of the SIC. If you think you can be an asset to that cockpit with 500 hours and a Airbus type rating, you may not have asked the right questions.

Do some research on Middle Eastern airlines and ask yourself if you think that your non-muslim family isn't a target outside of a few square blocks in Dubai.

Look at how the Malaysian mishap was handled by their overseeing authority.

And you are saying that this is your ticket to the "Big Time." I feel for you, bro. But you are thinking of making some pretty bad decisions and all you need to do is break the chain....

I am not sure I am going to do it, but more like a consideration as an alternative to the CFI route.
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Plenty of other opportunities out there. CFI and skydive pilot were two of my favorites. As a skydive pilot I flew Caravans, Twin Otters and King Airs and it paid well.

Personally I think you're shooting yourself in the foot to spite your career.
 
If you are worried about not getting hired at a regional at 1500, why not get your CFI and try to get hired at a flight school that is part of the American Eagle Pipeline program or the Skywest Bridge program. This will help ensure you get to a regional right at ATP mins, but from what I have seen, there is no shortage of jobs at the regionals once you hit 1500
 
I have a question for @Kels Hughes . Why would you pay for a job instead of being a CFI and on what planet is that a logical alternative? Fortunately most of these places have vanished from the US but perhaps you can buy your way into an operation somewhere in the Congo.
 
Where I live in Indonesia there is a large airline that has P2F FO's. This airline has a bad reputation and I wouldn't want to work for them even if they were paying me to fly. I'm not sure about other places, but my guess is he P2F airlines are the bottom feeders with horrible cultures and bad training. Just something else to consider.
 
CFI - good.

P2F - bad.

Skydiving - good.

P2F - bad.

Aerial survey - good.

P2F - bad.

You do not need to participate in one of those programs to get to the regionals. 121 regionals in the US are hurting for recruits right now. If you have 1,500 or more hours, willing and able to work in the US, do not have any skeletons in your closet and a pulse - you are an eligible candidate for a number of regionals.
 
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