Passengers Sue After Plane Delay On Snowy Runway
- Thread starter mpenguin1
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mpenguin1
Well-Known Member
tonyw said:
Call me ignorant, or stubborn if you wish, but, nothing that I have heard so far warrants keeping people on an aircraft for 7-10 hours.
I was a Plane Handler & a Plane Captain in the Navy, so I understand how it is to work around aircraft, parking, towing, gate control, boarding ladders..
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
tonyw said:
Always my favorite JC argument. You can't have an opinion until you've experienced it. (I'm not picking you out in particular, Tony).
But let's look at a situation here... let's say there's snow falling at an unprecidented foot an hour that comes out of nowhere (the closest real application to this would be a lake effect snowstorm). And let's just say that we're at Newark, where there is a 30 minute wait for takeoff (it's a slow day in Newark
). Snow accumulates and the runway can't be kept clear, and there are 10 airplanes whose gates have been taken by arrivals. Okay, so we have now closed our hypothetical airport as the snow continues to fall (btw, I never meant to say that since you can see the snow coming that you will be able to keep up with the snowfall, as I know that's sometimes not true). The airport is closed, which means no more arrivals OR departures, and ATC is advising that it will be probably about 4 more hours.
This might be a "You're the captain!" but, I'm sitting #1 ready for takeoff, upon hearing this news, I'm going to ask to taxi back to the gate.
"But what gate? They've all been taken by arriving aircraft!"
Yes, and by the time I get back to the gate, the pax should all be in the terminal. Have the plane at the gate go to the box (or wherever), and disembark MY pax. Repeat for other 9 planes in line.
Is there a flaw in my logic? Perhaps I'm assuming that there's enough box space, but even then there are taxiways that can be used in the short term, no?
Just looking for some of that expertise that I don't have because I've never been up front during a 6 hour snow delay on Taxiway F
Note: this post was 10% light hearted, so don't make me bring back the disclaimer
flyover
New Member
Mr_Creepy said:
That's just a ridiculous statement. Do what? Disembark your pax down the slides and have them walk in? Taxi through the 20 airplanes between you and the currently occupied gates? You can spout all you want but if you end up in this situation you'll be as stuck as others before you have been.
And if you think it's a matter of having cajones, you'll be one of thie idiots on the radio who makes everyone else shake their heards and who only makes matters worse.
You may go a career and not have it happen to you. I hope you do. But when you're stuck on a taxiway with dozens of airplanes in front of you and no open taxiways or gates in sight, your cajones with get you squat.
Let them out to where? If you're on a seven hour delay, I think the scenario would be a lot like this.
Lots of airplanes all over the taxiways. Outbound flights aren't leaving because of the weather and occupying gates leaving no gates to return to. Even if you were able to get airstairs out to the aircraft on the taxiway despite the unplowed surfaces (remember, snow plows aren't plowing around parked aircraft), you're going to have to find a way to move anywhere from 50 to 300 people from the secure area back into the terminal.
Even with this ability, next thing you know, you're going to have 777's, 767ERs, 75's etc all calling for that one airstair and the bus to deplane passengers. --->IF<--- you can even charter a bus, get it approved by the airport authority, FAA and TSA to enter the secure area. Even if a bus is large enough to carry 50 people, you're going to have to make three or up to six or seven round trips to deplane --->ONE<--- aircraft.
That means that the roads up to the airport are plowed and driveable -- if you have the authority to do such, if buses or airstairs are available if the FAA, TSA, AA buy off on the idea.
What do you do with them then? The aircraft is still stuck on the taxiway so if things opened up, there's probably no gate to return to pick up the pax, if they're not blocked on the taxiway.
Trust me, if there was a way to return to the gate, they'd have returned the gate. From a pilot's perspective, there is no hell worse than sitting in a locked cockpit on the taxiway with the flight attendant chime ringing every 30 seconds, people meandering about the cabin and demanding all sorts of interesting things from the cockpit.
The problem with legislation is that you're going to have people deciding what should be done with zero operational experience, no knowledge of security procedures and certainly no idea on how an airport works.
The cure will most certainly be worse than the ailment.
I sat three hours on an aircraft during a departure delay in ORD along with a few trillion other aircraft. Our gates were occupied, ground equipment wasn't moving because of the snow, all departures were halted. In fact, we were sitting on an unused runway because there was zero taxiway space, all ramp space was gone and no place to go.
Lots of airplanes all over the taxiways. Outbound flights aren't leaving because of the weather and occupying gates leaving no gates to return to. Even if you were able to get airstairs out to the aircraft on the taxiway despite the unplowed surfaces (remember, snow plows aren't plowing around parked aircraft), you're going to have to find a way to move anywhere from 50 to 300 people from the secure area back into the terminal.
Even with this ability, next thing you know, you're going to have 777's, 767ERs, 75's etc all calling for that one airstair and the bus to deplane passengers. --->IF<--- you can even charter a bus, get it approved by the airport authority, FAA and TSA to enter the secure area. Even if a bus is large enough to carry 50 people, you're going to have to make three or up to six or seven round trips to deplane --->ONE<--- aircraft.
That means that the roads up to the airport are plowed and driveable -- if you have the authority to do such, if buses or airstairs are available if the FAA, TSA, AA buy off on the idea.
What do you do with them then? The aircraft is still stuck on the taxiway so if things opened up, there's probably no gate to return to pick up the pax, if they're not blocked on the taxiway.
Trust me, if there was a way to return to the gate, they'd have returned the gate. From a pilot's perspective, there is no hell worse than sitting in a locked cockpit on the taxiway with the flight attendant chime ringing every 30 seconds, people meandering about the cabin and demanding all sorts of interesting things from the cockpit.
The problem with legislation is that you're going to have people deciding what should be done with zero operational experience, no knowledge of security procedures and certainly no idea on how an airport works.
The cure will most certainly be worse than the ailment.
I sat three hours on an aircraft during a departure delay in ORD along with a few trillion other aircraft. Our gates were occupied, ground equipment wasn't moving because of the snow, all departures were halted. In fact, we were sitting on an unused runway because there was zero taxiway space, all ramp space was gone and no place to go.
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
So do they still keep accepting inbounds or what? I don't understand how there could be so many aircraft on the ground at one time if everything stops at once...
Usually in that situation, the aircraft are diverted.
Which causes other problems. Some diversionary airports are 'temporary' hold points for diverting jets where they can fuel up and depart again, but don't have the capacity to offload passengers. For example when ORD went to crap when I was working at Skyway, we had 767's, MD-11's and 777's sitting on the ramp outside of the CAL gates. I don't think a jetway there could handle any of the jets so they sat there loaded up waiting for weather to improve.
They could have put more fuel on to make a further alternate, but that means more fuel, more weight, more cost, less payload, perhaps fewer passengers -- *IF* the forecast weather at ORD even required an alternate. And if the airport doesn't require an alternate, chances are you're not going to get one and the crew probably doesn't have an idea that a unforecast system is about to march over Chicagoland because of a change in winds.
This stuff isn't exactly a uhh, 'exact' science.
Which causes other problems. Some diversionary airports are 'temporary' hold points for diverting jets where they can fuel up and depart again, but don't have the capacity to offload passengers. For example when ORD went to crap when I was working at Skyway, we had 767's, MD-11's and 777's sitting on the ramp outside of the CAL gates. I don't think a jetway there could handle any of the jets so they sat there loaded up waiting for weather to improve.
They could have put more fuel on to make a further alternate, but that means more fuel, more weight, more cost, less payload, perhaps fewer passengers -- *IF* the forecast weather at ORD even required an alternate. And if the airport doesn't require an alternate, chances are you're not going to get one and the crew probably doesn't have an idea that a unforecast system is about to march over Chicagoland because of a change in winds.
This stuff isn't exactly a uhh, 'exact' science.
Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
First of all, I had the career so yes it did happen to me. More than once. We got parked out one wintery day at Logan (BOS) and I raised holy hell on ops frequency until they sent a couple pax buses out to get my folks. Whaddya know next summer they park us out with an inop APU - dying of heat this time. Once again, I start raising hell on the ops frequency. A familiar voice comes back, "didn't I talk to you last winter?"
After each event I called my chief pilot immediately, and explained to him what happened. No job lost, no money risked, just having the balls to do what was right, and not being worried about a carpet dance.
In both cases the CP said "Thanks John, you did the right thing."
Doug Taylor said:
At ORD I know bus availability wouldn't be a problem, the buses that go back and forth to the employee lot could be used. In BOS, DFW, JFK the buses that are used for boarding could be made available. Bill lost (that's lost as in departed the aircraft) a tire on an ATR at ORD once. They couldn't continue to taxi like that, so an employee bus (already SIDA approved since they carry employees directly from parking lot to terminal) was there within 20 minutes to get the folks off.
There's so many issues involved with that situation. With clogged taxiways, chock-a-block full ramp/gate/parking areas, blowing snow, lightning, there's just no way to say in EVERY situation here's what should be done.
I've been there myself many, many (too many) times.
Doug Taylor said:So how's JC's "Soap Star Looks" Mr. MQAAord doing anyway?
Eh, the usual.
Nothing like company drama to make him come home 3 trips in a row in a foul, spitting mood. Life's a peach. :cwm27:
There are many, many days that I'm not only glad I'm out of the industry, but that I wish I never ever had to deal with it ever again.
fender_jag
Well-Known Member
Doug Taylor said:(Irregardless!
mpenguin1
Well-Known Member
MQAAord said:
This is perhaps the wisest comment that has been said before. I am willing to admit, that there are some strange events, such as a creeping weather delay, but, to let your customers rot, is just not good business.
This particular case seems like it falls under the unusual department..