Passenger compliance regulations?

[N0000N]

I am trying to locate specific regulations related to passenger compliance during an emergency under 135 operations. Specifically if a passenger, though "not" interfering with a crew member, is not adhering to crew member instructions.

I know about 14 C.F.R. 121.317(k): “Each passenger shall comply with instructions given him or her by a crewmember regarding compliance with” seat belt requirements. But that only refers to seatbelts. How about any other direction from the crew?

How about any regulation that requires pilots to notify passengers of turbulence or any hazard to flight? What if we are expecting turbulence along our route. Are we required to notify passengers by regulation? It's obviously the correct thing to do but is there a "regulation" that specifically requires it? In this case I am being told we are not required to do anything more than tell passengers to put seatbelts on. Supposedly there is no requirement to brief passengers beyond the original passenger brief before take off and that the FAs are responsible for that. The captain and FO don't have to say anything to the passengers beyond the before flight brief required in 135.117.

I have seen AC 121-24C which includes the "suggestion" of a prelanding briefing for 135 ops but nothing that requires it.

There doesn't technically seem to be any requirement for passengers to follow directions of crew except for seatbelts and smoking.

Otherwise it seems to be the wild west at least in 135 charters.

Nor does there seem to be any requirement to notify passengers of upcoming issues along the route of flight or landing other than the AC I quoted above but nothing is in a regulation that I can find.

Can someone suggest something I am missing here? This does involve a specific incident.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

There is no direct word for word requirement to comply with all crew instructions, but the prohibition on interfering with crewmember duties - 91.11, 121.580, 135.120 - has been applied to a variety of passenger conduct and refusals to obey instructions. Doubtful it's universal and there is going to be some fact-specificity, but i would expect a failure to follow instructions during an emergency to interfere with crew duties to secure the aircraft, protect passengers, and maintain order during an emergency.

Not an emergency case, but Wallaesa v, FAA, a 2016 US Court of Appeals case, is pretty instructive on the subject. It's also somewhat fun to read because of the event - a passenger annoying another passenger and refusing to keep away from her after being given a new seat far away.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

There is no direct word for word requirement to comply with all crew instructions, but the prohibition on interfering with crewmember duties - 91.11, 121.580, 135.120 - has been applied to a variety of passenger conduct and refusals to obey instructions. Doubtful it's universal and there is going to be some fact-specificity, but i would expect a failure to follow instructions during an emergency to interfere with crew duties to secure the aircraft, protect passengers, and maintain order during an emergency.

Not an emergency case, but Wallaesa v, FAA, a 2016 US Court of Appeals case, is pretty instructive on the subject. It's also somewhat fun to read because of the event - a passenger annoying another passenger and refusing to keep away from her after being given a new seat far away.

You had me at “pro se.”

 

[Deleted member 27505]

You had me at “pro se.”

I'm going to use the Judge Brown's statement as the introductory remarks for future ground school sessions:

"In the catalog of human endeavors, few activities are as fragile as flight. The air offers no mercy for mistakes and no second chances. Flight is, as Winston Churchill observed, 'an extremely dangerous, jealous and exacting mistress,' demanding unfettered attention and respect."

 

[Old Pete]

You had me at “pro se.”

If anyone asks me in an interview who my heroes are, I will have a hard time not mentioning a few pro se litigants.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

If anyone asks me in an interview who my heroes are, I will have a hard time not mentioning a few pro se litigants.

And then the retiree on the panel looks at you over table as if you’d grown horns and spat on his shoes, or something like that; and says “say what?”

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

You had me at “pro se.”

Sometimes those get the best written decisions because the judges try extra hard to make it as clear as they can.

 

[T/O w/FSII]

I saw you whole post on reddit, and it’s very telling of your character that you’re trying to find a reg so you can report your captain to management because he didn’t make a PA about upcoming turbulence.

I got news for you dude, not only is that something no one does in 135 (PA’s) but if the PIC was pissed off because the passengers kids and parents weren’t listening to him then he’s within his right to stop being friendly to them.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I am trying to locate specific regulations related to passenger compliance during an emergency under 135 operations. Specifically if a passenger, though "not" interfering with a crew member, is not adhering to crew member instructions.

I know about 14 C.F.R. 121.317(k): “Each passenger shall comply with instructions given him or her by a crewmember regarding compliance with” seat belt requirements. But that only refers to seatbelts. How about any other direction from the crew?

How about any regulation that requires pilots to notify passengers of turbulence or any hazard to flight? What if we are expecting turbulence along our route. Are we required to notify passengers by regulation? It's obviously the correct thing to do but is there a "regulation" that specifically requires it? In this case I am being told we are not required to do anything more than tell passengers to put seatbelts on. Supposedly there is no requirement to brief passengers beyond the original passenger brief before take off and that the FAs are responsible for that. The captain and FO don't have to say anything to the passengers beyond the before flight brief required in 135.117.

I have seen AC 121-24C which includes the "suggestion" of a prelanding briefing for 135 ops but nothing that requires it.

There doesn't technically seem to be any requirement for passengers to follow directions of crew except for seatbelts and smoking.

Otherwise it seems to be the wild west at least in 135 charters.

Nor does there seem to be any requirement to notify passengers of upcoming issues along the route of flight or landing other than the AC I quoted above but nothing is in a regulation that I can find.

Can someone suggest something I am missing here? This does involve a specific incident.

Its gonna be a long long road for you. Never too late to change your attitude.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

I am trying to locate specific regulations related to passenger compliance during an emergency under 135 operations. Specifically if a passenger, though "not" interfering with a crew member, is not adhering to crew member instructions.

I know about 14 C.F.R. 121.317(k): “Each passenger shall comply with instructions given him or her by a crewmember regarding compliance with” seat belt requirements. But that only refers to seatbelts. How about any other direction from the crew?

How about any regulation that requires pilots to notify passengers of turbulence or any hazard to flight? What if we are expecting turbulence along our route. Are we required to notify passengers by regulation? It's obviously the correct thing to do but is there a "regulation" that specifically requires it? In this case I am being told we are not required to do anything more than tell passengers to put seatbelts on. Supposedly there is no requirement to brief passengers beyond the original passenger brief before take off and that the FAs are responsible for that. The captain and FO don't have to say anything to the passengers beyond the before flight brief required in 135.117.

I have seen AC 121-24C which includes the "suggestion" of a prelanding briefing for 135 ops but nothing that requires it.

There doesn't technically seem to be any requirement for passengers to follow directions of crew except for seatbelts and smoking.

Otherwise it seems to be the wild west at least in 135 charters.

Nor does there seem to be any requirement to notify passengers of upcoming issues along the route of flight or landing other than the AC I quoted above but nothing is in a regulation that I can find.

Can someone suggest something I am missing here? This does involve a specific incident.

Flip the switch, and ring the bell. You've done your job. It's really all you can do. If they're not sticking their noggins into the cockpit, or doing lines of blow off the tray tables, leave 'em alone. Even if they are doing lines of blow, probably best to leave 'em alone.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I saw you whole post on reddit, and it’s very telling of your character that you’re trying to find a reg so you can report your captain to management because he didn’t make a PA about upcoming turbulence.

I got news for you dude, not only is that something no one does in 135 (PA’s) but if the PIC was pissed off because the passengers kids and parents weren’t listening to him then he’s within his right to stop being friendly to them.

I mean, there’s a duty of care owed, but, more or less this.