Part 91 Beechjet 400A SIC

jrh

jrh

Well-Known Member
A few questions for the collective wisdom here:

What sort of training/qualifications are needed to fly as SIC in a Beechjet 400A under Part 91? What sort of training is needed to be safe, beyond the legal minimum? In other words, what are signs a flight department is trying to cut corners versus what the industry standard training expectations would be?

What is a fair day rate for SICs? I see the Pro Pilot Salary Study lists full time SICs as averaging $48k/year, but not sure how this translates to a daily rate for a contract pilot.

I might have an offer to work as SIC, mostly day trips, only 3-4 days/month, with the majority of trips scheduled 2-3 weeks in advance. In my opinion, an awesome opportunity, but I want to make sure the training and compensation they've told me is fair.

Anything else to watch out for?
 
In a perfect world you would want a type. Whether it is just an SIC type or not. Other than that, there is nothing that will give you what you should have in the cockpit. Read what you can on the ground, then the rest is OJT.
 
Inverted said:
In a perfect world you would want a type. Whether it is just an SIC type or not. Other than that, there is nothing that will give you what you should have in the cockpit. Read what you can on the ground, then the rest is OJT.
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I'll agree with that. Is not required that you go to an initial school for this sort of thing, but you asked what training is needed to be safe, beyond the legal minimum. The answer is definitely going to a school for that type of plane with a sim. If they pony up the $ for that, you know you're working for a top notch operation.

Fair daily rate? Opinions vary, and it also varies depending what part of the country you're in. Around here in the Midwest, about $450-$500/day is acceptable for this type of work in this type of plane. I would definitely not accept less than $400/day, no matter what part of the country you're in. Or course they need to pay for your food and any other expenses while you're working.

That's all I can think of at the moment. Hope it works out for you.
 
I've done $400/day (plus meals and lodging, obviously). Never less, usually a hair more. I was typed and current at the time, although I don't know whether that matters. As staledog said, I personally would want to go to school on it, although from the sound of your post, I'm betting they are not planning on sending you.
 
Thanks everyone.

Training is pretty much three laps around the pattern and the rest is OTJ. I thought this might be cutting corners, but apparently it's more standard than I thought. The captain has 14 years working with this plane so hopefully he wouldn't do anything dumb.

Pay is $400/day, with $150/day if it's all sitting. For example, a three day trip with a day of sitting in the middle would pay $950. They say sitting for a whole day hardly ever happens.

Not sure what I'll do. I need to talk to both this gig and my current gig to see if I can make the schedules and pay make sense for everyone. If I don't do it, I'm sure there will be plenty lined up behind me...
 
jrh said:
Pay is $400/day, with $150/day if it's all sitting. For example, a three day trip with a day of sitting in the middle would pay $950. They say sitting for a whole day hardly ever happens.
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There should be no difference in day rate, it doesn't matter if you're sitting in a hotel. Remember that's a day you can't be doing something else. Your time is valuable.
 
Ya I wouldn't accept 150 to sit on the ground away from home. My day rate is the same whether I am flying or twiddling my thumbs in a hotel.
 
TrustMeI'maPilot said:
There should be no difference in day rate, it doesn't matter if you're sitting in a hotel. Remember that's a day you can't be doing something else. Your time is valuable.
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I totally agree. The real kicker is that I'd be taking time off from my full time aircraft sales job to fly in the jet, and I know my pay structure in sales will need to be adjusted somehow accordingly. The end result very well might be a net decrease in pay if I'm not careful.

The possible upside is that a cell phone and laptop can go a long ways in the aircraft sales world. I might still be able to be productive on the road, meaning it might be possible to get paid from both jobs on the same day.

Thus, why I need to do some negotiating with both sides. Show me the money!
 
Also, remember 61.55 requires more than 3 trips in the pattern, you also need to fly around single engine.

School would be nice, but to sit right seat probably isn't necessary.

As someone typed and current in the Bitchjet, I wouldn't do it for less than $450/day whether I fly or sit.
 
jrh said:
I totally agree. The real kicker is that I'd be taking time off from my full time aircraft sales job to fly in the jet, and I know my pay structure in sales will need to be adjusted somehow accordingly. The end result very well might be a net decrease in pay if I'm not careful.

The possible upside is that a cell phone and laptop can go a long ways in the aircraft sales world. I might still be able to be productive on the road, meaning it might be possible to get paid from both jobs on the same day.

Thus, why I need to do some negotiating with both sides. Show me the money!
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Remember after the three bounces and a lil ground training you can walk an 8710 over to the fsdo and get an SIC Type added to your certificate. All perfectly legal. Just have the limitations and memory items down and you'll be a valuable SIC. With a guy who's got the much time in the airplane I wouldn't worry too much as long as he actually knows what he's doing. Plus you've been around enough to figure that out pretty quick. Just remember violations come in two's, so speak up if you think some things wrong. :)
 
The Diamond was designed as a single pilot aircraft...it's not exactly the space shuttle. I wouldn't let the lack of school kill the deal...but no way would I sit around all day for $150. That would need to change. But that's me, this is you!
 
TrustMeI'maPilot said:
There should be no difference in day rate, it doesn't matter if you're sitting in a hotel. Remember that's a day you can't be doing something else. Your time is valuable.
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I agree on this, I use to get the same amount for a flying day or a day away from home base with no flying..
 
jrh said:
I totally agree. The real kicker is that I'd be taking time off from my full time aircraft sales job to fly in the jet, and I know my pay structure in sales will need to be adjusted somehow accordingly. The end result very well might be a net decrease in pay if I'm not careful.

The possible upside is that a cell phone and laptop can go a long ways in the aircraft sales world. I might still be able to be productive on the road, meaning it might be possible to get paid from both jobs on the same day.

Thus, why I need to do some negotiating with both sides. Show me the money!
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I had the same issue, I started a part time job while on a full time contract (but almost a part time schedule), I ended up loosing all the benefits (this was a huge loss, think about housing and car allowance) and the full time position pay I had at my first job (as part of the deal), later down the road the schedule between the two jobs started to become a mess and I had to let one job go, overall it was a bad decision from the start, in my case the second job was not going to be profitable for my career, as I was flying the same plane....so I should have just kept my first full time position and be happy with it.

I was also told, at the beginning that all trips were going to be scheduled in advance, that was true for maybe the first month
 
If the captain you're flying with has an ATP (i'm assuming he does) then just have him train you, sign your 8710, walk into the FSDO and get your SIC.
 
KHanson said:
If the captain you're flying with has an ATP (i'm assuming he does) then just have him train you, sign your 8710, walk into the FSDO and get your SIC.
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Might wanna double check that info. As far as I know, an ATP can only give instruction under 121 or 135. Under Part 91, a CFI would be required for the sign offs.
 
vheissu said:
Might wanna double check that info. As far as I know, an ATP can only give instruction under 121 or 135. Under Part 91, a CFI would be required for the sign offs.
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This is the one case were it's not really an issue. Since it's just to satisfy the icao SIC rules it is pretty relaxed endorsement criteria. In lieu of a trainer a management official can even sign the 8710. If you read the whole section it basically applies to part 91 only, as all the others (91k, 135 and 121) have their own training programs they must have approval for. It was the FAA's way to have an easy way for small part 91 corp depts to comply with the icao rules. The training that's outlined in 61.55b you always had to have to act as an sic in an aircraft requiring one. Now you get to add some thing to your certificate for your three bounces and emergency procedures training. :)

It's in 61.55 it states in part;

....(1) The person who provided the training must sign the applicant's logbook or training record after each lesson in accordance with § 61.51(h)(2) of this part. In lieu of the trainer, it is permissible for a qualified management official within the organization to sign the applicant's training records or logbook and make the required endorsement. The qualified management official must hold the position of Chief Pilot, Director of Training, Director of Operations, or another comparable management position within the organization that provided the training and must be in a position to verify the applicant's training records and that the training was given.

(2) The trainer or qualified management official must make an endorsement in the applicant's logbook that states “[Applicant's Name and Pilot Certificate Number] has demonstrated the skill and knowledge required for the safe operation of the [Type of Aircraft], relevant to the duties and responsibilities of a second in command.”

(3) If the applicant's flight experience and/or training records are in an electronic form, the applicant must present a paper copy of those records containing the signature of the trainer or qualified management official to an FAA Flight Standards District Office or Examiner.

(4) The applicant must complete and sign an Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application, FAA Form 8710-1, and present the application to an FAA Flight Standards District Office or to an Examiner.

(5) The person who provided the ground and flight training to the applicant must sign the “Instructor's Recommendation” section of the Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application, FAA Form 8710-1. In lieu of the trainer, it is permissible for a qualified management official within the organization to sign the applicant's FAA Form 8710-1.
 
TrustMeI'maPilot said:
There should be no difference in day rate, it doesn't matter if you're sitting in a hotel. Remember that's a day you can't be doing something else. Your time is valuable.
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It's like 50% pay for deadheading.

"Well what am I going to do while I'm back here, get another job?"
 
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