Part 61.159 Question

[mlaviator]

61.159 (c)(3) says that Military Flight Engineers can count 3 to 1 for total time up to 500 hours towards their ATP. Sadly, I was not a FE, I was a navigator with 1700+ hours which, apparently, doesn't count for anything. The series of questions I have are:

1) Why has the FAA given a special allowance for the Flight Engineer but not other crew positions with are integral to the operation of an aircraft?

2) Can I count the time anyway?

3) If "no" to #2, can I petition the powers that be to consider some ratio wherein a portion of my experience equates to something in the civilian flying world.

When I asked my local FSDO they said that navigator time did not count for anything. The benefits of being able to add 500 hours to my meager 380 total time would be helpful in progressing a pilot career.

For anyone that wants to get REALLY technical, my rating in the Air Force was called "Combat System Officer". Most operation units were not very receptive of the new name for the same position that had always been called "navigator". I just feel a little left out considering it took a lot of training and effort to perform my job, and, not to knock the diligent Flight Engineers of the armed forces, see another crew position receive consideration for their experience.

 

[MercFE]

Welcome to JC!

While I can't answer your questions directly, I can tell you that the majority of responses I've seen regarding the FE provision for myself have been quite negative from the community.

I am about 9 months from retiring and hoping to follow up with a career as a pilot afterwards. I must say, while I'm not banking on it, I hope the experience allowance is honored.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[CFI A&P]

61.159 (c)(3) says that Military Flight Engineers can count 3 to 1 for total time up to 500 hours towards their ATP. Sadly, I was not a FE, I was a navigator with 1700+ hours which, apparently, doesn't count for anything. The series of questions I have are:

1) Why has the FAA given a special allowance for the Flight Engineer but not other crew positions with are integral to the operation of an aircraft?

2) Can I count the time anyway?

3) If "no" to #2, can I petition the powers that be to consider some ratio wherein a portion of my experience equates to something in the civilian flying world.

When I asked my local FSDO they said that navigator time did not count for anything. The benefits of being able to add 500 hours to my meager 380 total time would be helpful in progressing a pilot career.

For anyone that wants to get REALLY technical, my rating in the Air Force was called "Combat System Officer". Most operation units were not very receptive of the new name for the same position that had always been called "navigator". I just feel a little left out considering it took a lot of training and effort to perform my job, and, not to knock the diligent Flight Engineers of the armed forces, see another crew position receive consideration for their experience.

This doesn't really help your situation, but if you were in a navigator capacity in the military you might be able to get the FAA certificate of Navigator. Isn't really used in modern aircraft so it would be more of a novelty. It maybe an impressive resume bullet and get you noticed. See 14 CFR 63.51.

 

[MercFE]

This doesn't really help your situation, but if you were in a navigator capacity in the military you might be able to get the FAA certificate of Navigator. Isn't really used in modern aircraft so it would be more of a novelty. It maybe an impressive resume bullet and get you noticed. See 14 CFR 63.51.

Pretty much the same reason I got my FAA FEX certificate. Makes for a fun resume item.

Plus, hopefully it lends credence to the hours that I've logged as an FE since being cert'd toward the ATP reg.

 

[hook_dupin]

Though much of your mil time may not make it into your civilian logbook, I've found some employers "get it." You may not be able to get the ATP- required jobs off the bat, but you should be able to ferret out a part 91 gig where the operator understands your experience is much much greater than the average applicant with a few hundred hours.

....I'm a WSO currently on a staff gig and doing the CFI thing on weekends.

 

[ElihuSmails]

Ditto, I'm a P-3 NFO now in a reserve unit and making my way through the ranks. Just about to get my ATP, so it wouldn't help me much, but I'd like to see them add something. Sad that they'll only let a pilot count a mil flight physical as equivalent to a 3rd class, yet we all take the same rigorous physical every year, which is way more thorough than a first class, and we can't use it for squat. I think it would be more than fair for the FAA to include a provision for Nav/NFOs - we don't get all the systems experience, but we sure get a lot of experience in IFR ops and beyond. The good thing is - and I'll bet you've already noticed this - that your experience and training will make you stand out quite a bit from other people with your "equivalent" experience. Hopefully, you can still keep your security clearance current as you gain flight hours. Could give you an additional option down the road. Keep your head up.