Part 121 ops and TFRs

tcco94

Future GTA VI Pilot
I'm curious...if you're flying 121 and in the area for any TFR, how do you go about getting approval to enter? For instance, the president TFR, sporting event TFRs that clip some airports, stationary lifetime TFRs (Disneyland or Presidents houses)...

All I've known about TFRs from being a student to CFI is to always avoid them. Just curious to the big boys other than military ops. Do you guys brief TFRs for your route to avoid just like I have too or rely on ATC to keep you out?
 
Part 91 IFR they vector you around or have you fly through.

When I was 121 in Hawaii the controllers treated the presidential TFRs more like an active shuttle or missile launch.
 
Generally you're IFR so ATC takes care of it. Beyond that, scheduled carriers are generally exempt from presidential and VIP TFRs. Except possibly for a few minutes on either side of them arriving.
More or less it's a non-issue.
 
Part 91 IFR they vector you around or have you fly through.

When I was 121 in Hawaii the controllers treated the presidential TFRs more like an active shuttle or missile launch.
So if you are vectored through it I'm wondering if ATC tells you or anything goes on the tape regarding that you are okay to fly through the TFR?

Mainly getting to the point if they say fly heading 120 and that puts you on course to go through a TFR (and you know this) but ATC forgot for some reason...would you be at fault as PIC...even though you're obviously IFR and following what you're told...
 
So if you are vectored through it I'm wondering if ATC tells you or anything goes on the tape regarding that you are okay to fly through the TFR?

Mainly getting to the point if they say fly heading 120 and that puts you on course to go through a TFR (and you know this) but ATC forgot for some reason...would you be at fault as PIC...even though you're obviously IFR and following what you're told...
ATC is responsible. If you're IFR, TFRs don't exist. It's one of the wonderful things about IFR. Just like busting airspace is impossible.
 
ATC is responsible. If you're IFR, TFRs don't exist. It's one of the wonderful things about IFR. Just like busting airspace is impossible.
Okay...thanks. Easy enough to just teach that to students then.
 
Okay...thanks. Easy enough to just teach that to students then.
I mean it's not useless information. A great example being what Stone Cold is referring to. A 121 management crew at an airline sure to crash an airplane soon took off and declared an emergency to land at an airport that was closed for an airshow. Both NOTAM and a TFR existed. ATC said, no we can't grant you access. 99% of the time they can. Firefighting is another example where you're not going to go through. They'll vector around. Or the Rolling TFRs. Where they move, which can be hard to keep track of. IFR takes your problems away.
 
When a presidential or other VIP TFR is in effect, there is usually a ground stop for a few minutes or you end up having to hold for a few minutes. Not a real big deal but like everyone else said, ATC handles it.
 
There are usually lots of exemptions. Here's an excerpt from the notice of Obama's Xmas TFR in Hawaii. What a royal pain in my ass:

faa said:
Kaneohe Temporary Flight Restrictions The TFR will consist of a 10NM inner core and a 30NM outer ring. The exact location of the TFR has not been determined and will be in the published NOTAM. The TFR includes the airspace from surface up to but not including FL 180. Be advised that noncompliance with the published NOTAM may result in the use of force. INNER CORE: Within 10 NMR, access will be permitted as follows: • Law enforcement, military aircraft, emergency/life saving flights (medical/law enforcement/firefighting) operations must coordinate with ATC prior to departure at a phone number that will be in the published NOTAM. • Regularly scheduled commercial passenger and all-cargo carriers operating under one of the following TSA-approved standard security programs: Aircraft Operator Standard Security Program (AOSSP), Full-All Cargo Aircraft Operator Standard Security Program (FACAOSSP), Model Security Program (MSP), Twelve Five Standard Security Program (TFSSP) All Cargo Only, or All-Cargo International Security Procedure (ACISP) and are arriving into and/or departing from 49 CFR Part 1542 covered airports. OUTER RING: From 10 TO 30 NMR access to the outer ring will be permitted as follows: • All aircraft entering or exiting the outer ring must remain in two-way radio communications with ATC and be on an active IFR or VFR flight plan with a discrete beacon code assigned by ATC. Aircraft must be squawking the discrete beacon code at all times while in the TFR. Operations are limited to aircraft arriving or departing local airports, however ATC may authorize transit operations. Aircraft may not loiter. The following operations are permitted only with FAA/TSA/USSS pre-approval between 1900-0300 UTC (0900-1700 local) daily from the following locations: 1. Flight training at Kalaeloa (PHJR) and Dillingham (PHDH) airports. 2. Practice approaches at Kalaeloa Airport (PHJR). 3. Sightseeing operations via pre-approved routes from Honolulu (PHNL) and Turtle Bay Resort Heliport (HI58). 4. Seaplane operations landing and departing at Honolulu (PHNL). Operators need to be aware that any and/or all operations may be canceled with little or no advanced notice. Dillingham Airport Flight training, parachute jumping, ultra-lights and glider operations will be authorized within a 5NMR of Dillingham Airport (PHDH), up to but not including 14,500 ft MSL excluding special use areas. The times will be from 1900 to 0300 UTC (0900 to 1700 local) daily. Operators must coordinate with ATC prior to departure at a phone number that will be published in the NOTAM. Authorization to operate within this area may be canceled with little or no notice. Except as noted above the following operations are not authorized within this TFR: aerobatic flight, ultra-light, hang gliding, balloon operations, agriculture/crop dusting, animal population control flight operations, banner towing operations, maintenance test flights, model aircraft operations, model rocketry, unmanned aircraft systems (UAS), and utility and pipeline survey operations.

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2015/Nov/2015_Hawaii_Flight_Advisory.pdf
 
ATC is responsible. If you're IFR, TFRs don't exist. It's one of the wonderful things about IFR. Just like busting airspace is impossible.

Just be careful with that line of thought. Nothing is "impossible" when it comes to aviation.

Two example traps that are easy to fall into:
1. I've noticed quite a bit that ATC will vector aircraft below the B shelf at some airports. If you're not paying attention, you'll bust the below-B speed limit
2. I heard a tower controller chew out an aircraft on a VFR practice approach because approach didn't send them over until they were on a 2 mile final. I know they were VFR, but having radar advisories, it's easy to think they'd have done the coordination for you.
 
I used to work in dispatch for a 135 operation and had to deal with the issue of TFRs rather than avoid them wholesale. Most Presidential TFRs had two components, an outer ring and an inner ring. The outer ring was usually 25 nm radius or so and to gain entry you just need to be ifr or on a vfr flight plan and squawking a discrete code and talking to ATC. The inner ring is where it got tricky as only air carriers with a safety protocol program (or something to that effect) serving a Part 139 certified airport were allowed to fly through it, and we were not.. Which is why it's mostly business as usual for the 121 world.
 
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