Paranoia and Concerns about ATP

RagingCacti

New Member
So Ive almost committed to ATP for the 6 month fast track from 0 hours to CFI, and I am having some concerns. I was lured in by the siren's song of sweet smiles and guaranteed Instructor job after completion, but I kept looking at the bill that would have to be footed and cringing. I decided to do more research into it, not satisfied with what I had done before, and I keep seeing posts about how it is a smart idea to avoid ATP like the plague.

So here is what Im asking: are there any ATP grads on here who can give me a low-down on what to expect regarding the FI job? Is it actually guaranteed? If it is, how long is it from completion of the course until actual hiring? I might attend the PIE school, like 69BugDude, but are there any other locations that are recommended over it?

Ive considered other options, but I havent gotten any informed opinions about it. Would it be better to go through a smaller school to get the PPL and get the rest through ATP, or just avoid it altogether? Are there other viable options that any of you recommend?

For a little background: My current plan is to get the CFI in 6 months and do the instructor dance for a couple years to get hours while meanwhile completing the rest of my degree online. Is that smart, or a suicide run? Im just looking for opinions of those who are much more qualified than I, and have done this dance before.

Thanks for any input!

Cacti
 
Oh boy.... You have brought a can of worms with this post! Any time someone asks whether or not ATP is a good idea, its a battle-royal on these forums.

There is A LOT of info about ATP on here.... Search through the forums and you will probably find everything you are looking for, and some things you aren't.

Here is some unbaised information as I have trained with a local FBO (PPL in 2010) and ATP (Career pilot program 2/13 - 10/13).

As I say to so many others.... There isn't a "right or wrong decision." It is what works best for you. I planned for two years before I started ATP. I explored every option. I toured several schools and looked into the small FBO option. For me, ATP was the only way for several reasons: 1. Financing availablty. 2. Speed of the program. 3. Ability to keep my gov't job (I did the self-paced program). 3. Location (I went to ATP RIC which is an hours drive from home for me). 4. Multi time I would receive.

In my planning and research, I found it hard to find financing for a similar program that also got you done as quickly, and I found no other programs flexible enough to allow me to stay home with my new wife and keep my gov't job part-time. But thats why it worked for me. Everyone has different circumstances.

Above all, you need to rigerously look at your current and future finances if you do this, especially with ATP. I will not lie.... It definitely IS NOT the most cost effective way to get all of your necessary ratings. But if you want to ride the hiring wave at the regionals and get pushed up quick, then you need to get your ratings quickly. The sooner you're in an airline, the better. The more pilots hired after you, the better protection from furlough you have down the road. I can tell you that you will likely not get done as quicky anywhere else.

In terms of quality of training.... There are a TON of opinions on this. I truely believe it doesn't matter where you train; there are two main factors that will directly affect how "good" your training is: 1. Your personal work ethic. 2. Your instructor's personal work ethic.

ATP is a VERY fast program when you put it in perspective. You get a lot of ratings quickly, and for a zero experience guy like yourself, you will be required to learn (eventually to the point of instructor profieciency) an incomprehensible amount of information. A lot of it is simple info.... But a lot is not. Your have to work you a$$ off non-stop. Its no joke. But it is doable and a lot of it is fun too.

On the other side of it, a lot does depend on your instructor. They have to be motivated to make a good pilot, not just to get to 1500 hours. You will find good and bad instructors at ATP and just about every other flight school in the country. Just because someone instructs for ATP doesn't mean you will get bad instruction.... so don't listen to that school of thought. Personally, my instructor at RIC was awesome. He was very motivated to make the best possible pilots he could. We got more ground school than we could handle at times and he ALWAYS made himself available to us. He trained us to standards well above the PTS and would spend a lot of time making sure we were more than ready. The other two instructors at the RIC location are the same way. They are great. To be completely honest, my ATP instructor was better than my PPL instructor from the small FBO.... and my PPL instructor was very, very good. That being said, there are ATP instructors out there that aren't like this. So if you do go to ATP, and you get assigned an instructor who isn't cutting it, report it to admin immediately and get reassigned. Have valid reasons for requesting reassignment and they will give it to you. You're not guaranteed a good or bad instructor at any school. Know that going in.

In terms of the guaranteed instructor job: You are offered a position if you meet the following requirements: You have no more than 2 or 3 checkride failures throughout the program. You are a "good student" with no recurring issues. You are able to work 7 days a week and relocate to your assigned training center. You are able to pass the Instructor Standardization Course in Jacksonville Florida. If you can do all that.... then yes, you get an instructor job with ATP. They will give you a Instructor Standardization date in Florida very shortly after you finish the program, usually within the first week or two. So it is a fairly quick transition.

Either way you go, you need to have all available information known before you go. Do your research. Take a good hard look at your finances.... Like I said, ATP isn't cheap (its also NOT the most expensive.... i.e. Aeroism Academy, Flight Safety, Phoenix East... or God forbid a degree program at ER or ND....)

Don't listen to all the negatives on here. There are a lot of people who hate ATP for various reasons. But the truth is that it DOES work for a lot of people. You have to be motivated and work very hard. You'll get out of it what you put in it...that is true for any program.

If you want detailed info on the program, look at my running experience blog called "New Student/Running Experience". That will give you a good picture of what the training is like (at least at RIC).

Lastly, in terms of recommending a location... I would HIGHLY recommend the Richmond, VA location. They have excellent instructors there. You won't get better instructors anywhere else. I can't speak for other locations as I didn't train at them.

Good Luck.

Mike
 
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I'm not a fan for the following reasons:

1) No seasoning time between the ratings to apply what you've learned doesn't make for a well rounded pilot.

2) ATP's marketing is misleading and doesn't give the full story of what the career is about.

3) The whole deal about ATP CFI's being "independent contractors" is a scam.

4) Zero time to CFI in six months and then you are teaching the next newb? My God man, that's just nuts.

I'm happy for the above guy who is having a great experience. Really, I am. But he lost me at "Don't listen to....."

You should listen to everyone.
 
You have to make the decision for yourself, as someone who spent a few years under the ATP umbrella many things that DE727UPS are absolutely true, and FutureCaptainKrik makes great points as well. It's not as glamorous as advertised, it's hard work. Most of the horror stories you here are from people who don't understand this before signing up. Talk to as many people as you can, try to find people who successfully completed the program and some who didn't.
 
I'm not a fan for the following reasons:

1) No seasoning time between the ratings to apply what you've learned doesn't make for a well rounded pilot.

2) ATP's marketing is misleading and doesn't give the full story of what the career is about.

3) The whole deal about ATP CFI's being "independent contractors" is a scam.
I believe their failure to actually treat their CFIs like independent contractors has gotten them in trouble of the legal sort in at least one state.

4) Zero time to CFI in six months and then you are teaching the next newb? My God man, that's just nuts.

I'm happy for the above guy who is having a great experience. Really, I am. But he lost me at "Don't listen to....."

You should listen to everyone.
Slow and steady progress wins...so does no debt.
 
And illegal according to every definition the IRS has ever given to independent contractor.

Yah, it really amazes me that they get away with it.

Also, the whole "Guaranteed Instructor Job" is a total scam too. They wash out (i.e fire) anywhere to 30%-50% of the people that come down to work for them during "standardization." This is by design because they simply don't have enough positions to give to everybody that they "guarantee" a job too. The sad part is that the vast majority of people they dismiss because they "aren't good enough" are their very own former students. What does that tell you?
 
It is your own decision to make and what would financially work for you while you live the life you want in the process. I went to ATP simply because the smaller schools couldn't help secure a loan for flight training during the economic downturn. Many lenders have stopped working with the smaller mom and pop flight schools. But be aware because a lot of the things posted about ATP are true and real life experiences. Personally what made the difference for me at ATP were the instructors. Some will not care about your success and are only there for the hours. Some couldn't even teach and others were there to really do their jobs and help you. I took private, instrument and commercial pilot ground school classes in college for my degree and it helped a lot. My instructors didn't spend much time on the ground stuff. Be ready to read the books from cover to cover and seek answers when you need them. I ended up teaching and explaining things to other students on a regular basis. I did enjoy flying almost everyday and at one point 2X and even 3X a day to meet requirements because ATP will try to flush you out as fast as possible and your instructors are greedy for hours.

Yah, it really amazes me that they get away with it.

Also, the whole "Guaranteed Instructor Job" is a total scam too. They wash out (i.e fire) anywhere to 30%-50% of the people that come down to work for them during "standardization." This is by design because they simply don't have enough positions to give to everybody that they "guarantee" a job too. The sad part is that the vast majority of people they dismiss because they "aren't good enough" are their very own former students. What does that tell you?

^^^^^ Be aware of this!! I went for the guaranteed job and I lost all hope. You will work in the PIT (call center) while they determine if they want you or not. They even required some of us to pay for the standardization flight. I started with a huge class and got very suspicious when none of us passed the first single engine flight and were told to fork more money to continue training. We all did! There was no order or explanation of how some were allowed to get through and others were dismissed. I finished the single engine part easily and waited a couple of weeks to start the multi while others that got there after me finished everything in days. I got called for another CFI job and left. It took one flight with the chief pilot at my new job and I started instructing. The pay was better and 2 days off a week. Don't count on the ATP CFI gig! Good Luck!!
 
And illegal according to every definition the IRS has ever given to independent contractor.
When i filed with a 1099 my accountant mentioned i could file as a full time employee and it would force the irs to look into it, and the employer would have to pay for their half of my social security plus whatever else. I didnt go through with it because it could get them in a lot of trouble , but I'd be interested if someone tried that.


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When i filed with a 1099 my accountant mentioned i could file as a full time employee and it would force the irs to look into it, and the employer would have to pay for their half of my social security plus whatever else. I didnt go through with it because it could get them in a lot of trouble , but I'd be interested if someone tried that.
Uh, yes, violating the law generally gets people in trouble, yes.
 
I know *nothing* about ATP, its practices, or client happiness. BUT: I do know I would not want to be taking instruction from 0 to CFI in six months with an individual who has only been in airplane for 7 months. Good God man, that's crazy pants. That instructor is going to be learning just as much as you are.
 
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Nice to see something is being done about that. But, like I said, I'm interested to see if individual employees have tried anything and what came of it. It's been my experience that there are still a ton of misclassified jobs out there.
I've never been in that situation, but:

The various governments - particularly the ever-revenue-strapped Californian government, along with their Federal friends at the IRS - take a very, very dim view of companies who misrepresent the status of their employees. Usually, it gets expensive.
 
So Ive almost committed to ATP for the 6 month fast track from 0 hours to CFI, and I am having some concerns. I was lured in by the siren's song of sweet smiles and guaranteed Instructor job after completion, but I kept looking at the bill that would have to be footed and cringing. I decided to do more research into it, not satisfied with what I had done before, and I keep seeing posts about how it is a smart idea to avoid ATP like the plague.

So here is what Im asking: are there any ATP grads on here who can give me a low-down on what to expect regarding the FI job? Is it actually guaranteed? If it is, how long is it from completion of the course until actual hiring? I might attend the PIE school, like 69BugDude, but are there any other locations that are recommended over it?

Ive considered other options, but I havent gotten any informed opinions about it. Would it be better to go through a smaller school to get the PPL and get the rest through ATP, or just avoid it altogether? Are there other viable options that any of you recommend?

For a little background: My current plan is to get the CFI in 6 months and do the instructor dance for a couple years to get hours while meanwhile completing the rest of my degree online. Is that smart, or a suicide run? Im just looking for opinions of those who are much more qualified than I, and have done this dance before.

Thanks for any input!

Cacti

I went through the program with my private and I'm glad I had that baseline, at least. I also had a good CFI for multi/instrument, which made all the difference - occasionally there I had ratings with •tier CFIs and it was a horrible experience getting screamed at in the airplane. ATP is nothing more than a pilot mill, and I know good pilots that have come out of there and many bad ones too, and it's not entirely up to the individual, it also matters who they pair you with. You also have no control over much of anything, there, they tell you how it's gonna be and who is going to instruct you, and when you're gonna take your checkride whether you're ready or not. They threaten if you get labelled problematic that you won't get a CFI job at the end. I should have done what I wanted, as I ended up not taking the CFI job anyway - they took like 2 months to get back to me after graduating and by that time I was already making twice what I would have made at ATP at a 141 school. They can guarantee instructor jobs because they will fire somebody to make room for a new graduate if they need be, and frankly most people who are students there for 6 months and see what kind of shady • goes on have zero interest in working there. At many locations you literally have no choice but to work 12-15 hours a day 7 days a week. There's no chance you're going to complete your degree while instructing for ATP, period, so put that idea entirely out of your mind. Even at the better flight schools (I was working 10 hours a day, 5 days a week at Transpac) it was really tough being so burned out at the end of the week to complete much coursework.
Fortunately, I've got a much better flying job now where I'm only 3 classes left from finishing my BS, but I can say for sure it wouldn't have happened if I was instructing at ATP.
 
Holy Cow. Just amazing, it starts with what should I do, to taxes. Now I remember why I only like the daily pics section.
 
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