PAR No-Gyro Approach

killbilly

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
I got to fly one tonight. First time. Very cool experience.

I'm actually not quite to the approach phase in my IR training yet, but since we were in the area and it wasn't too busy, the controllers at Quantico were enthused about letting us do one.

Very interesting hearing "turn left. stop. on course...right of course correcting slowly..." etc...

We were apparently flying neara V-22 doing something similar, but I never got to see him. Those things are badass, by the way.

Anyway, it was a really neat thing to do. I celebrated this by making one of the worst landings of my career into VKX. Amazingly bad landing. Safe...but bad.

Makes it memorable, I suppose.
 
I remember doing the PAR approach into YUM (now NYL :() as a student, Very cool experience.

Not knowing what I was doing I was given exact headings to fly, and like a good student I read back all the headings, well after the 2nd or 3rd heading they set me straight pretty quick. Made it just a little more memorable.
 
skypilot6 said:
I remember doing the PAR approach into YUM (now NYL :() as a student, Very cool experience.

Not knowing what I was doing I was given exact headings to fly, and like a good student I read back all the headings, well after the 2nd or 3rd heading they set me straight pretty quick. Made it just a little more memorable.
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Don't feel too bad. I believe they are required to say "do not acknowledge further transmissions" prior to the final portion of the approach. Perhaps some experienced controllers can clarify/confirm/deny this, but there have been plenty of times when I have heard that on a normal (ie not no gyro) PAR when I hadn't been responding.
 
///AMG said:
Don't feel too bad. I believe they are required to say "do not acknowledge further transmissions" prior to the final portion of the approach. Perhaps some experienced controllers can clarify/confirm/deny this, but there have been plenty of times when I have heard that on a normal (ie not no gyro) PAR when I hadn't been responding.
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Thats exactly what they said, but only after I acknowledged a few times. All were on the final part of the approach about 5-7 miles out. At least If I ever get another chance to fly a PAR approach, I'll know to keep my mouth shut ;)
 
I wish there were more around. After you get the IR, do more. The controllers are usually eager because I think they have a currency requirement (or something like that), too.
 
deadstick said:
I wish there were more around. After you get the IR, do more. The controllers are usually eager because I think they have a currency requirement (or something like that), too.
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Yes, apparently they do. Which is cool.

And yeah, at about 7 miles they told me not to acknowledge any more calls. My CFII said that was normal.
 
I did no gyro asr all the time with students, tons of fun but never did a PAR. PAR is just an ASR with vertical guidance right?

What is the phraseology for the vertical like?
 
I used to work PAR final at Davis-Monthan, and I teach the similar ASR approach to new controllers at El Paso. I loved talking planes down PAR final. It's a real kick.
 
RDoug said:
I used to work PAR final at Davis-Monthan, and I teach the similar ASR approach to new controllers at El Paso. I loved talking planes down PAR final. It's a real kick.
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That was the only way to get the planes down during the crappy winter weather in Europe after shooting a full TACAN approach from FL200 with radials to arcs and arc to radials all on the same arrival. No ILS on Phantoms and no such thing as an enroute descent to a final approach. Flying real CAT III approaches with the airlines was walk in the park after that.

If you have been around a while you probably gave me a PAR at DM.
 
Ajax said:
I did no gyro asr all the time with students, tons of fun but never did a PAR. PAR is just an ASR with vertical guidance right?

What is the phraseology for the vertical like?
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you could liken it to that, but a PAR is a precision approach, and an ASR is a non-precision. Most ASR's will drop you off in the ballpark, similar to a TACAN or VOR, but a PAR is equivalent to an ILS. Phraseology is like "on glideslope, on course, 3 miles"...."slightly below glideslope coming up, on course 2 miles"......"going slightly above glideslope on course"....."slightly above glideslope and holding 1 mile"....."slightly above glideslope coming down, slightly left of course correcting, 3/4 mile"....."at decision height"...etc
 
Springer said:
That was the only way to get the planes down during the crappy winter weather in Europe after shooting a full TACAN approach from FL200 with radials to arcs and arc to radials all on the same arrival. No ILS on Phantoms and no such thing as an enroute descent to a final approach. Flying real CAT III approaches with the airlines was walk in the park after that.

If you have been around a while you probably gave me a PAR at DM.
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yeah, similar to the Phantom, the Hornet has no civilian ILS capability. We do have ICLS that works at the boat and at maybe one or two still funded NAS fields, but otherwise, it is PAR or nothing when the weather is bad.
 
Since the subject is present, I have always wanted to know why the military prefers PAR to a traditional ILS? Is it maintenance? Cost? Seems like an awful lot of money/time goes into getting controllers radar approach proficient, qualified, and current.

I have to fly PAR's everyday into military fields as a civilian and I just cant say I prefer them to an ILS. I have had controllers give me erroneous headings ("right of course, turn right XXX" final approach course 230 "turn right heading 175" what!! "below glideslope going further up"... etc) and in the soup thats just one too many human beings involved for my liking.

Not to mention the PAR is usually broken.
 
PropSettin' said:
Since the subject is present, I have always wanted to know why the military prefers PAR to a traditional ILS? Is it maintenance? Cost? Seems like an awful lot of money/time goes into getting controllers radar approach proficient, qualified, and current.

I have to fly PAR's everyday into military fields as a civilian and I just cant say I prefer them to an ILS. I have had controllers give me erroneous headings ("right of course, turn right XXX" final approach course 230 "turn right heading 175" what!! "below glideslope going further up"... etc) and in the soup thats just one too many human beings involved for my liking.

Not to mention the PAR is usually broken.
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PAR brings you lower than Cat I ILS. Being a mobile system, it's very easy to setup in deployed locations, versus all the necessary infrastructure for an ILS. You can have a PAR up and running in no time and have precision capability.

USAF is the only one that prefers ILS over PAR, mainly stateside. It's also a great backup when ILS is down.

Most of the controllers are exceptional, and can talk you to the deck.

If you haven't flown a ROKAF controlled PAR, you've seen nothing in life.
 
MikeD said:
Most of the controllers are exceptional, and can talk you to the deck.

If you haven't flown a ROKAF controlled PAR, you've seen nothing in life.
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AH, I should have added I work in a heavy trainee environment. Most of those errors were in VMC, but the thought of a similar mistake in IMC got me a little sketched out.

I figured the simplicity of the system had something to do with it.

Good to know!
 
they bring out the FNG's on VMC days.....normally if it is real IMC, you will be getting your control from a very qualified controller.....and sometimes you can even hear them step in on good weather days and take over when things start getting too out to lunch. I agree, a new student controller is often very bad, but those aren't the guys who are going to be getting you down on those 200 1/2 days
 
Flew an ASR once at TYS. From that perspective the controller was vectoring us around clouds it seemed. It looked like magic to me. We don't have one, but I've done one once as a controller because there wasn't much in the way of options outside of the ejection seat. Not so fun improvising with a 4 second lag.

Almost gives me a story to top my dad's PAR to an F-4 whose RIO ejected near the Philippines. Almost.
 
///AMG said:
they bring out the FNG's on VMC days.....normally if it is real IMC, you will be getting your control from a very qualified controller.....and sometimes you can even hear them step in on good weather days and take over when things start getting too out to lunch. I agree, a new student controller is often very bad, but those aren't the guys who are going to be getting you down on those 200 1/2 days
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Most are 100 1/4 mins. Not all, but that's what the system is certed to
 
FAA used to have PAR as well. I believe there's a PAR approach depicted in the original Airport, which filmed at real FAA facilities using real FAA controllers. There's also a great depiction of a PAR approach into Kadena in Strategic Air Command.
 
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