Pan Am / Student Experience

DE727UPS said:
What have you spent so far?

I guess that's the $100,000 question... literally!

For the time totals in the above post, plus 22 hours FTD time:

$18,800 for aircraft/FTD rental (that's about $131 per hour Archer/FTD)
$8,600 for instruction (I'll explain this below)

So that's $27,400 TOTAL spent since August. Before everybody gets their panties in a bunch, I'll be the first to admit that this is much more than I would have spent training Part 61 at an FBO. But, as I said in the very first post, I didn't come to Pan Am because it's the cheapest. I'm here because I think it's the best fit for what I wanted in a training academy, and so far I'm happy with what I've spent. I know many of you have less than favorable opinions of Pan Am and other "academy" style training programs... please don't start a flame war over this.

That said, the way the school calculates instruction time is total bunk. Students are charged 1.6 times the time spent in the aircraft as "brief" time. This is supposed to include all the instruction in the aircraft, plus a pre- and post-flight brief. Of course, the CFIs only see pennies on the dollar of what Pan Am charges for instruction. The official line on this brief charge is that it helps cover all the administration costs. I'd rather have an upfront cost for admin so I don't have to look at the outrageous brief totals on my dispatch receipt after every flight!

I am going to meet with the financial aid coordinator this week, so I'll have updated numbers on the new Part 141 program total cost if anyone is interested. SO FAR I think I'm a little under budget, but the big-money Seminole flights are coming up this month.
 
"I didn't come to Pan Am because it's the cheapest. I'm here because I think it's the best fit for what I wanted in a training academy"

Interesting how you said that...

More power to ya.
 
Thanks. I think this post from Doug sums up my feelings about training...

Doug Taylor said:
There are a thousand ways to 'skin a cat' in the aviation world.

There are large FBO's, small "mom & pop" schools, flight academies, collegiate aviation, the military, etc.

Which way is the best way? Personally, I think the US military "Undergraduate Pilot Training" because the price is right and you're going to fly way cooler things than you'll ever have a chance to in the civilian sector. Plus, you'll be a 'known quantity' candidate and you can pretty much write your own ticket in the aviation world when there's hiring going on.

It depends on the student. Some students will thrive in a small FBO environment, some other students have the resources and desire to go to a flight academy.

Which is better?

Neither.

Flight academies are a lot of money, FBO's have far lower costs and lower prices. Some flight academies offer CL-65 prep... You don't need it, the airlines don't require it, but if it's something you're interested in and want to do, go for it if you've got the financial resources. The multi-engine rating I earned at ERAU was the same multi-engine rating that I could have earned at Falcon Air for a lot less.

However both environments offer different tools to different students.

A couple examples. I'm a big fan of ATP, but ATP isn't for a casual student who likes to be spoonfed and coddled like a child. The student has to arrive prepared, motivated and ready to learn or they're going to whip his ass and then he's going to show up on the forum later complaining about he got cheated out of two extra hours of extra training in the Seminole where in fact he came to training flights unprepared on several occasions.

I'm a 5-year ERAU grad. It was a lot of money, I spent a lot of time and cash doing things that amounted to more or less dumping hoardes of cash into a roaring fire.

Would I go to ERAU again? No, but considering the networking contacts, the people I met and friends that I made, I'd certainly at least hang out there on the weekends and sponge sponge sponge.

If I had stayed in Tulare and trained at the (now defunct) Gryphon School of Aviation (where I got my private), I wouldn't have met Mike Lewis/Copaman, MikeD, Joe E (not a member of the website), Bogberto, Craig Funk, Art Draut, Fred Cone, etc -- all of the people that helped me get to where I am today in their own ways.

Yeah, I complained about Riddle, spoke of the Riddle run-a-round, and I still do, but I still stayed. Looking back, considering I was pretty wet behind the ears and largely immature, it actually worked for me. I didn't have the support network that you guys enjoy. My only contact with an actual pilot was my high school counselor's husband who was an out of work four-timed furloughed Inland Empire Airlines metroliner FO who more or less told me to "...run, don't walk, away from this field, but I can answer a couple of questions".

So knowing what I know now, would I go back to ERAU? No.

But would I be where I am today not meeting the aforementioned people? Probably not.

Catch-22.

...

Flight training is 'transporation' of sorts.

There are Hondas and Acuras.

They're both cars. They'll both drive 65 mph on highway 101 with safety, efficiency and comfort.

Some folks might want leather seats.

Some folks might want cloth seats.

Acuras have some built-in features that Hondas drivers don't see or have a need for. Is the Acura a waste of money? Maybe, maybe not. Both brands have what you need however, the brands present a different product.

I live in Arizona. I may not need the heated leather seats that come standard in the Acura, but the Acura driver who spent more for the heated leather seats isn't necessarily a dumbass, especially if he lives in Michigan.

It's Doug's world, we just live in it.

I like the training I am receiving here, and I feel that the academy setting provides the most "tools" for my style of learning. I chose a flying career after I had already enrolled in a liberal arts college, so the university track wasn't for me. And a few minor medical problems meant the military was a no-go. So that left FBO training and the big "pilot farm" academies. I like the structure here and I'm happy with my training. I'm sure it would have been cheaper at an FBO, or even at Westwind across the parking lot, but I like the product that Pan Am offers. So $27,000 later, I'm halfway to a CPL , and things are going well. Hope that gives anyone interested out there some insight!
 
JimmyDean said:
Thanks. I think this post from Doug sums up my feelings about training...



It's Doug's world, we just live in it.

I like the training I am receiving here, and I feel that the academy setting provides the most "tools" for my style of learning. I chose a flying career after I had already enrolled in a liberal arts college, so the university track wasn't for me. And a few minor medical problems meant the military was a no-go. So that left FBO training and the big "pilot farm" academies. I like the structure here and I'm happy with my training. I'm sure it would have been cheaper at an FBO, or even at Westwind across the parking lot, but I like the product that Pan Am offers. So $27,000 later, I'm halfway to a CPL , and things are going well. Hope that gives anyone interested out there some insight!

well i work at an airline and can't tell you how many pilots here have loan payments about half the size of mine, got done twice as fast and are at the same job, same seniority and have the same pay as me who went to pan am and paid twice as much.

i mean if you are rich or have access to a lot of money pan am is great. ifyou are not rich and have to pay your own way, it is a really dumb idea to go to pan am.

Go to ATP, get done quickly, pay much less get on a seniority list faster. that is what is important.
 
sherpa said:
well i work at an airline and can't tell you how many pilots here have loan payments about half the size of mine, got done twice as fast and are at the same job, same seniority and have the same pay as me who went to pan am and paid twice as much.

i mean if you are rich or have access to a lot of money pan am is great. ifyou are not rich and have to pay your own way, it is a really dumb idea to go to pan am.

Go to ATP, get done quickly, pay much less get on a seniority list faster. that is what is important.

Thanks for your post. I hope everyone had a nice holiday.

A lot of former Pan Am students share the same feelings about their alma mater. The common theme seems to be that Pan Am's promise of "10 months to hire" never materialized, and they feel jilted. I think if the same promise came my way, and it took me 3 years, I would feel jilted, too. However, I didn't expect to be in a job in 10 months, I expeced to be finished with the training in 10 months. After that, I can stay here and instruct to build time, or go elsewhere. That's where the 10 months can turn into 3 years, and I was fully aware of that when I signed on the dotted line. It sounds like the real problem was those marketing geniuses setting everyone up to get pissed off. Things are better now.

Trust me, the financial aspect was a huge element in choosing a school, but it wasn't the only one. I understand you think I have made a "dumb" decision. I know I could have attended ATP (or any respectable FBO) for less than I will spend at Pan Am. But so far, I am on budget and on schedule, so they've held up their end of the bargain.

As far as training goes, I passed my first multi stage check before the holiday break. In another two weeks, I should be ready for the full CPL/multi checkride. Now that I'm back in town I'll be sure to keep everyone posted!
 
I passed my checkride yesterday and am now a Commercial Pilot.

I have to be honest, six months ago I had no idea things would progress this quickly. CFI training starts next week!

I guess I'll take a few minutes and reflect on the training experience here. The first thing is a disclaimer - while my experience with the program has been phenomenal, a few of the guys who enrolled at the same time as I did are still finishing up their Instrument ticket. That's unacceptable, given the amount of money they're putting on the line for this. I know that they've had instructor problems which have compounded the delays... still seems like they should be well on their way to the CPL by now.

Our Chief Flight Instructor was canned a few weeks ago. This hasn't been much of a problem, but since he was the author of the new Part 141 syllabus, nobody in charge is overly farmiliar with the program. Had to spend a few days figuring out which endorsements needed to go in the logbook! Otherwise, I was happy with the new syllabus. It took about three and a half months to complete, from PPL with 50 hours to CPL, Instrument and Multi ratings, with 180 hours total time. Lots of instrument time (almost 80 hours) and cross-country time (about 70 hours).

Maintenance on the planes has been exceptional. The Pan Am maintenance dept. just received the AZ Avionics tech AND Maintenance tech of the year award - both two years running! Congrats! I experienced a total of zero delays throughout the entire Instrument/Commercial training program. The airplanes always perform as expected, and are always available (now that the Arrows are gone). A lot of the guys who were on the old Part 61 syllabus were stuck getting their CPL in the Arrow first - big time delays. Glad I don't have to see time in them, though I hear chandelles in the Archer are not very exciting.

Ground school here is overpriced, as most of my studying for the FAA written exam was out of the $15 Gleim book. I also feel like $350 for the checkride is highway robbery, considering that doesn't include the cost of the airplane.

But the big-picture review here is positive. I guess I should say, my experience has been positive. I feel very confident that CFI training will go well, and I look forward to beginning my career as a CFI. Anyone considering training here or elsewhere, feel free to send me a PM. I'd be happy to answer any questions about the program. Looking forward to CFI!
 
Congrats JD!

Congrats JD!! You should feel proud of your accomplishments. You are a phenominal student and will make and excellent instructor. If only the other guys in your class put in the same effort, then they would be right where you are. Keep up the good work!

LC
 
Lima_Charlie said:
Congrats JD!! You should feel proud of your accomplishments. You are a phenominal student and will make and excellent instructor. If only the other guys in your class put in the same effort, then they would be right where you are. Keep up the good work!

Thanks LC... couldn't have done it without your help! :nana2:
 
JimmyDean said:
Just completed my 250nm cross-country this week, out to California (my first time there!) and back for a whopping 8 hour day. Got some quality actual time and had to go missed a couple times in San Diego. It's mostly time-building now, my checkride should be sometime this coming week, definitely before Thanksgiving. That's just about two months total for the rating.

I just wanted to clarify: Pan Am is currently still doing the route program, but only for students who are still on the old syllabus. The new all-part 141 syllabus, which is necessary for the school to receive Title IV status (req'd by Key Bank to continue distributing loans), does not include the route program. This syllabus includes the necessary time for the commercial rating in the instrument module. I believe you can still add route on as an option to the new 141 syllabus, but I'm not sure.

Wondering if anyone at other schools is seeing the same shift away from "safety-pilot" multi time?

Is that the 250nm x country for the commercial? If so, if i remember right it has to be VFR. You may want to log it that way.
 
sherpa said:
Is that the 250nm x country for the commercial? If so, if i remember right it has to be VFR. You may want to log it that way.

I believe that was the IFR cross-country required in part 141, Appendix C, section 4(c)(1)(ii). 250nm along airways, with one 100nm straight-line segment. Awesome trip, still my favorite flight.

The cross-country solo for commercial multi is 250nm straight-line, and does not have to be VFR (see part 141, Appendix D, section 5(b)(2)). However, Pan Am stipulates that the flight meet the requirements of 61.129(b)(4)(i) and (ii), which makes it a 300nm night VFR cross-country. Some of the guys have flown it IFR as long as they get 5 hours night VFR somewhere else.

I can't believe I'm quoting sections from the FAR. What a geek. Guess that comes with the territory now!
 
well i guess the curriculum has changed quite a bit. Back when i was there it was the part 61 commercial straightline x country VFR. I knew at least one guy that had to go IFR for a couple of minutes. But after spending so much money didn't log it.
 
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