Pan Am FL?

TheFlyingTurkey

Fetus Worshiper
I am having a very good experience so far. Maybe I haven't been here long enough to see the problems some of you have encountered. Time will tell.

As far as the ground school goes... I got a 92% on my PPL FAA written... so I guess it is pretty good. It is a quick ground school also, only 3 weeks. You want fast??? If I keep on track, it will have taken me only 6 weeks to earn my PPL. I think that's fast.

The Turk.
 

Snow

'Not a new member'
Ok then FLD, for someone already with a 4yr degree and wanting to get into the industry in the shortest time possible, what would you recomend? Keeping in mind I would like to learn airline proceedures right from the start and I would like some glass cockpit airliner training in there somewhere too.

Also Pan Am is still cheaper then Flightsafety and you end up with 360hrs after compeltion, that's more than the others I've looked at, plus 85-95hrs multi IFR is a bonus too
 

chunk75

Well-Known Member
I'm not so sure Pan Am is cheaper...at least not since you went Part 61.

Chunk

PS--Why the hell do you wanna pay $$ for "glass cockpit training"...let the airline that hires you pay YOU for that training.
 

FLDiver

New Member
Go to ATP....be finished in 3 months...build tons of VALUABLE multi time, let the airline that hires you (a few years down the road), pay for the glass cockpit time. Get the "Airline Style" training you seek, then instruct at ATP and gain even more Multi time as an instructor. Not to mention at half the price of Pan Am.
The ACE program will not necessarily give you an edge over these furloughed pilots with thousands of hours of experience in a glass cockpit environment. Save your 7K for something else, build more multi time with it. When you graduate ATP and you just HAVE to spend your hard earned money...take the ACE from Pan Am or any other facility on your own (Beware, a lot of seasoned airline pilots look down on the PFTer's). I am not advertising for ATP, they just seem to have the quickest route for all of your ratings. I had a good experience there after leaving Pan Am but I didn't go through the Career Pilot Course. I just did my Multi add on there. I heard that you can use the sim as much as you like and don't get charged extra for it, of course you can't log that time either. This route makes a little more sense to me...but thats just me.
 

Snow

'Not a new member'
Because your never going to get that airline training if you fail the checkride. The ACE program is basicly to teach you how to operate a modern airliner simulator so when you go for your 737 interview checkride you won't be overwelmed. It is NOT sposed to be a type rating, it is simply to get you introduced to glass cockpits, airliner checklists and jet turbine operations so when you go for that checkride, it isn't all completely new to you. The airlines have basicly said to them unfamilarity with modern equipment is the main reason new recruits fail the checkride.
 

chunk75

Well-Known Member
That logic seems awfully fuzzy...wanna prep? read The Turbine Pilot's Manual. Heck, I'll let you borrow my copy! Save you a coupla grand.

Chunk
 
G

Guest

Guest
The ACE program guarantees you a job with an airline within 6 months of eligibility. The airline partners wanted a course that would prepare recruits for the the rigorous ground school and other training that you will encounter when you get hired to fly a single piston engine aircraft for airnet!
 

chunk75

Well-Known Member
fukoki wrote:

The ACE program guarantees you a job with an airline within 6 months of eligibility


********************************************

DUDE! You've been drinking the company Kool-Aid waaaaayyyy too long. No one, and I mean, no one in the flight school business can guaruntee you a job outside of the flight school! Listen to yourself....you're spouting out the marketing crap they fed you like you believe it!

Chunk
 

eodfe

New Member
Is that six month thing in writing?..... I didn't think so. Almost every big school guarantees you an interview, let's say that again...INTERVIEW......NOT A JOB!!!!! With so many experienced pilots out on furlough, you think with a measly amount of hours you're going to jump right into an airline job? Don't believe the marketing hipe, go and check the schools out, if you like it, and are willing to pay big bucks for it, go for it. But don't think you are ....GUARANTED......a job soon after you graduate.

Intelligent people are a dime a dozen, it's the ones with common sense that are hard to find.
 
G

Guest

Guest
OK. what I meant was that it is a tragic irony that we spend all this money to get us ready for airline training involving glass cockpits when more than likely the only job wating for us is with a small cargo operation flying piston engine planes for the first couple of years.

the guarantee is a job, not an interview. and yes it is in writing
 

TheFlyingTurkey

Fetus Worshiper
The guarantee Fukoki is refering to is the "ACE program money back" gurantee. And it is as follows: You must complete the ACE program, get hired by Pan Am to instruct, then reach 800TT. If you have not been HIRED by an airline within 6 months after reaching your 800TT, they will refund the ACE tuition cost. Pan Am does not gurantee a job. They will refund the money for the ACE program, big difference.

The Turk.
 
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Guest

Guest
What you just described is a job guarantee. If you don't get a job, you get your money back. You know, like a money back guarantee.

Anyway, if the regionals start pulling pilots out of Pan Am again, the student body morale will probably be where it should amongst a bunch of guys persuing their dreams.
 

Mavmb

Well-Known Member
Wow! I can't believe there is even a discussion about something so ridiculous as the ace program. Pan Am was clever to move the ace program before the cfi ratings. That way students are stuck with the bs ace program before getting the cfi ratings they really need for their careers. I guess the lesson to learn here is never underestimate the power of a good marketing campaign. For any student pilots, extra programs like the ace program and the word "guarantee" beside any flight school should raise some eyebrows and some questions.
 

FLDiver

New Member
Turk,
What is the time requirement for the completion of the 800 hour TT before they owe you a "refund"? The last I checked I think it was 24 months to gain the 800 hours but the time started from the first day you signed the "Death Certificate" (Contract), it used to be a little more feasible to gain the 800 TT BEFORE they switched the sequence of training. Now it is much more difficult to complete the 800TT AND they make sure they get their money for the CFI portion of your training.
 

Snow

'Not a new member'
I dunno, I think the ACE program sounds pretty cool, I read an article about it that a editor from some magazine, he did the 3wk course and thought it was great, not only Pan Am students do the ACE program you know.

Let me check what mag is was... um.. The June 2002 Airline Pilot Careers mag, have a read, I learn't more about it from that article than any of the stuff Pan Am has told me
 
G

Guest

Guest
I would say, depending on the rotation that you are on, the instructors here average overall about 3 flights, five days a week. Each flight averages about 1.5 hobbs so the weekly average is about 22.5. You come out of school (syllbus, actual is probably a bit higher) with about 360 or so hours. that leaves 440 hours to get. So that is about 20 weeks worth of consisient instructing to reach the mins before your six months start. There are a lot of high hour instructors here, i wonder if any have bothered to get their money back?
 

theman

New Member
20 weeks.... theoretically yes, realistically, no. PanAm isnt going to fill your schedule with students when you just earned your CFI... There are too many others with more seniority around here dying for students. From what I have heard from other instructors, it takes about 6-8 months to get your 800 hoursTT. Add that to the 12 months it takes you to go from pre-private to MEI, you've got maybe 4-6 months before your 24 month from day of signing is up. Otherwise your 6 months past eligibility is beyond that 24month time limit, and you cant get your money back. I dont know of anyone who has tried to get their money back, but I know the time limit for alot of instructors is up or very close. The word going around now is that if you ask for the money back.... dont come looking to Pan Am for a letter of recommendation.
 

dakovich

Well-Known Member
i don't think you can say ACE is really a bad thing, maybe in some's opinon its unecessary, but it is a good program. i've seen a sim session, and spoken with many ACE grads and they all rave about the quality of the program. i think the big question people have is if it fits into the timeline for it to be uselful by the time you actually get to the point at which you're qualified to get hired by a regional. the two points are a fair distance apart. word is though, that after completion of ACE you are allowed to go and use the sim to stay sharp, and also more marketable, as well as the AST300. thats just what i heard though, don't quote me. another thing that you hear people worry about is that they'll run out of cash before they finish their instructor ratings...ACE is now ahead of CFI so if you run low on $$$ you sacrifice an instructor rating vs. the ACE program. i'm just glad i'm well on path to having plenty of money left because i know i to would worry about this problem, who wouldn't.

i still think it makes more sense to keep ACE last, allow people to easily finish the CFI ratings with enough $$, and tell them that if they intend to work for Panam that they are required to take the ACE program to be considered for employment. i think you would see many more people pony up extra $$ to be able to work here because they don't want to see the time they've spent here already to go to waste. in todays market its hard to get a CFI job unless you trained at the intended place of employment. so, instead what is happening is that people get right to the point of going into ACE, questioning their finances because of how the new timeline of courses is, and then decide to go elswhere for their CFI training as well as bypass even going into ACE (HUGE loss of revenue for Panam). i hear this a million times from people on campus "my cash reserve is low so why would i skip an instructor rating to get ACE instead?!?", and "if i don't have enough cash to finish ACE along with all my instructor ratings there's no way i'll take out more loans to finish it all, i'll just go to the local FBO, other flight school, etc and get my ratings there and save $$ by skipping ACE".

you'll hear these complaints over and over again here. the way things are set up now with the ACE and CFI timline really forces people to question completing ACE through MEI...it sucks but it also tends to weed out more CFI candidates and give those who stick it out through MEI a better chance at securing a job as an instructor here. i hate to see people have to drop out because they can't achieve what they set out to because of money problems, but at the same time everybody who wants to be a CFI here probably loves to see less competition for a job, yet again, who wouldn't.
 
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