Order to pay off debts

CakeOnIt

Well-Known Member
I have been a landlord for the last several years and have decided to pull the plug. I only have two mortgages left (one for my primary residence 43K, the other is 51K on a multi-family rental that I might have to keep, given the slow market, but it nets around $900/Month. I am selling the last of my rental single family homes and look to net 130K.

However I have approximately 40K in revolving debt at various interest rates ( VERY BAD:-( ), a 500$ car payment for four years (0%), another 0% debt (installment) for for years. The mortgages are both 1000$ each, half of each is taxes and insurance (TI of PITI). I have to carry flood insurance until the mortgage is paid of 1000$ per year on the multi-family.

How would a financial adviser prioritize my debt reduction given only this information? I'm sure that my current income is going to be questioned, I would say under 20K for the next year :(.
 
Two schools of thought around here:

1. Dave Ramsey-pay off the smallest balance first and work your way up. Mortgages last. No debt is the end goal.
2. Savvy Investor-pay off your highest interest rate debt and work the debt off until you get to the interest rate that you can beat by sound investing. Then pay the minimum on your remaining debt and put your extra money away in good ETF or mutual funds.

And now people will debate.
 
My thoughts are the highest rate revolving has to be the first on the chopping block as a stating point. Zero debt is my goal, I really have to start making more money annually to accomplish this as soon as possible. My spending habits have rapidly downshifted, and never want to live under the debt burden once I'm free.
 
How would a financial adviser prioritize my debt reduction given only this information?
You'd probably have to ask a financial advisor that question. There is a lot more information she would request before advising you. Is the issue overall debt? Cash flow? Maintaining credit rating? Retaining property? Potential renegotiation of loans for cash flow maintenance? Bankruptcy something to at least consider to give a sense of the full set of realistic options?
 
The OP will probably hate this, but think about another way to earn income? Being a landlord, perhaps you have skills with home repair? Or landscaping? Or property management? Maybe you could do some of that on the side while do your regular (I assume low paid pilot) job.
 
The OP will probably hate this, but think about another way to earn income? Being a landlord, perhaps you have skills with home repair? Or landscaping? Or property management? Maybe you could do some of that on the side while do your regular (I assume low paid pilot) job.

The problem with doing property management is that it makes it really difficult to stay focused with a day job, because the tenants NEVER call with good news or call when it is "convenient". Thus the reason for me selling out, at least I made a little money that I can pay off a big chunk of debt with.
 
Zero debt is my goal

Why? Debt isn't necessarily bad. Only bad debt is bad. Mortgages should almost never be paid off, assuming you've refinanced them to current rates. A car loan at 0% shouldn't be paid off. Any low interest (<6%) debt shouldn't be paid off.

What are your real financial goals? Because being debt free doesn't make sense unless you have all high interest debt.

I have nothing to add but curious what kind of car you purchased that requires $500/mth payment?

That's not that much. I pay more than double that.
 
If you can deduct the interest, let it ride. 0% is free OPM...let it ride. What's the car loan rate? On this cash you're going to net, can you earn more reinvesting it?

FYI an airplane is not an investment. It's an expense...a winged money pit. ;)
 
Why? Debt isn't necessarily bad. Only bad debt is bad. Mortgages should almost never be paid off, assuming you've refinanced them to current rates. A car loan at 0% shouldn't be paid off. Any low interest (<6%) debt shouldn't be paid off.

What are your real financial goals? Because being debt free doesn't make sense unless you have all high interest debt.
True statements if you're flush with cash. I currently balance my budget to $0 each month, with any extra put toward my 401k. However, my $240/mo car payment at 3.25% is just hanging out there with about $6500 remaining on it. Frankly, I see no reason NOT to get rid of it; once I free up that $240/mo, I can increase my 401k contribution a bit more (the goal, of course, being to max it out each year). The car payment is just wasted money that could be used to make money elsewhere.
 
I should add that carrying large amounts of debt around, for those of us who aren't internet kajillionaires, isn't always the wisest move. In the event my company goes under at some point, being saddled with roughly $2,000/mo in just loan payments (between student loans and car) is a huge handicap in keeping afloat.
 
You miss the point. You aren't just carrying debt around. You're carrying debt and investments.
I'm not missing the point at all. I carry both, as evidenced by my previous posts. However, being out of debt and able to live on a heavily reduced budget if necessary (due to a job loss or economic downturn) is an important consideration, as well. Having gotten the axe at XJT right at the start of the 2008 meltdown, I can attest.

All this math about carrying debt checks out in theory, but reality often has other plans.
 
You still don't seem to get the math.
Oh, I get the math. Being saddled with $2,000/mo in loan payments, even low-interest loan payments, would be catastrophic with a 100% loss of income. Been there, done that. Got the t-shirt. Deferred my student loans for as long as I could while I worked my way into a job that paid decently, and watched the interest capitalize the whole time. I still owe more than I originally borrowed. Yay airlines.

After that, I can't in good conscience recommend that people carry debt, even if the math checks out on paper. In the words of Ernest Gann: "Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal." :)
 
Nah, you don't get the math. So I'll break it down for you. We'll look at two different people, both with the same $35k loan at 3% interest with a $100 minimum monthly payment, both making the same money, hired at the same time at the same airline, and then furloughed five years later at the same time. The only difference is that the first pilot, we'll call him Brent, takes his spare $500 each month and pays down the loan over and above the minimum payment, while the other pilot, we'll call him Todd, takes his spare $500 each month and invests it in a conservative mutual fund that earns 6% per year on average and only pays the minimum payment on the loan.

Pilot A (Brent)
Loan Balance at end of 5 years: $2,462
Investments: $0
Net Worth: -$2,462

Pilot B (Todd)
Loan Balance at end of 5 years: $34,206
Investments: $34,885
Net Worth: $679


Pilot B comes out $3,141 ahead. Both pilots have now lost their jobs. Pilot A still has another 24.6 months to pay that minimum monthly payment on his loan of $100, and he has zero money set aside while he has no income. Pilot B, on the other hand, has to continue making that $100 monthly payment, but he has $34,885 in investments that he can cash out to make those payments, plus pay other living expenses while he looks for another job. Granted, he still has nearly the full loan balance, but it's irrelevant to their current circumstances. He's still in the far better position both from the perspective of being able to make his monthly payments, plus in terms of net worth.

People who think it's wise to pay off low interest debt either don't understand math, or just haven't done the math. I assume you're the latter. So please do the math.
 
Nah, you don't get the math. So I'll break it down for you. We'll look at two different people, both with the same $35k loan at 3% interest with a $100 minimum monthly payment, both making the same money, hired at the same time at the same airline, and then furloughed five years later at the same time. The only difference is that the first pilot, we'll call him Brent, takes his spare $500 each month and pays down the loan over and above the minimum payment, while the other pilot, we'll call him Todd, takes his spare $500 each month and invests it in a conservative mutual fund that earns 6% per year on average and only pays the minimum payment on the loan.

Pilot A (Brent)
Loan Balance at end of 5 years: $2,462
Investments: $0
Net Worth: -$2,462

Pilot B (Todd)
Loan Balance at end of 5 years: $34,206
Investments: $34,885
Net Worth: $679


Pilot B comes out $3,141 ahead. Both pilots have now lost their jobs. Pilot A still has another 24.6 months to pay that minimum monthly payment on his loan of $100, and he has zero money set aside while he has no income. Pilot B, on the other hand, has to continue making that $100 monthly payment, but he has $34,885 in investments that he can cash out to make those payments, plus pay other living expenses while he looks for another job. Granted, he still has nearly the full loan balance, but it's irrelevant to their current circumstances. He's still in the far better position both from the perspective of being able to make his monthly payments, plus in terms of net worth.

People who think it's wise to pay off low interest debt either don't understand math, or just haven't done the math. I assume you're the latter. So please do the math.
That math all checks out, but again, it's not a realistic scenario. The numbers you've provided are inconsequential. My scenario, wherein I absolutely need to take home $5,000/mo in order to live and service $1715/mo in debt payments ($1476/mo in loans, $239/mo on my car), is much more realistic for modern college grads who didn't have their family's financial support.

Now, in order for me to take home $5,000/mo, I have to have roughly a six figure income. Thankfully, I do fine at Beachball International and make it all work, including putting 10% each month into my 401k for full employer match that balances my monthly budget to $0 left over. But, it's a precarious scenario: If I lose my job 5 years from now, I'll still be paying $1476/mo for my student loans (car would be paid off by then), requiring me to still need a job that puts me in the six figure range. And man, I don't know about Georgia, but those aren't growing on trees in California.

So, while we can all (and do) understand the simple math that you're providing, you're forgetting one crucial detail: Reality has ideas that can't always be foreseen on paper. While the S&P500 has returned roughly 10% per year historically, there have been entire decades where it's shown a loss (2000-2010 is a perfect example). People with high debt loads, regardless of interest rate, are very exposed to sudden economic downturns or job losses. And while the math you're showing is good and clean on paper, most people in the middle class (to upper middle class) range would more than likely find that actual financial security is in being able to get rid of debt and not be saddled by high payments during a job loss. They'd be able to take a lower-paying job in the mean time and still make ends meet.

Now, of course, this doesn't at all mean that you should stop saving or investing while paying down debt. I certainly haven't. 15% of my gross earnings each month goes into an S&P500 tracking fund. But beyond that, my 5-year plan is to be debt free and able to withstand a potential downturn better. After that, then it's full throttle. The theoretical math may show that I'm losing a bit of money, but the realistic threat of an industry downturn down the line needs to be taken into account.
 
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