Option to resign or be terminated...

PositionAndHold said:
Not taking sides here but some mainline pilots are not exactly members of The Mormon Tabernacle Choir. I know several either personally or through friends with DUI's, drug issues, have wrecked their own airplanes or a combination of all three. Heck there's even a few that have bent their companies airplanes and kept their jobs. Now if it's more of a personal thing between you and rockman and you know more than what he's posted here, that's between you two. If you don't want to work at a place that'll hire a guy with a sketchy background and a DUI, your choices are pretty limited to an airline that doesn't exist.
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I'm going to go ahead and say "Umm, dream on"

You do dumb things in big airplanes and its a big deal. You can do certain things and seek help, but you're under the gun for the remainder of your stay. At the places you probably want to work, there are certain "non starters". Second, third tier, who knows.

Hell, we've had a guy that smarted off in court over a minor traffic ticket about how dare a judge, well judge him about what a safe speed was because he was responsible for more lives than your honor could ever imagine.

Off to TruckMasters he went after the court ordered psychological evaluation.

Two things: keep your nose clean. Never represent yourself in court.

Ever.
 
And the "Oh, snap, the po-po is here, let me lead them on a high speed chase" did not receive a "LOL, well, when you get out of the pokey, make sure your Jepps are updated and don't be late for check in" either.
 
BobDDuck said:
I think the point is that, in theory, a chief pilot (and an ACP) is supposed to be THE example of "the aviator". Good decision making, good leadership, gets along with everybody, stands up for the pilots against management wrath, etc etc. Of course, very few CPs are actually like this and in fact, many are management stooges who got to where they are for doing the absolute opposite of those things listed above. I know I'd have a hard time taking criticism about making a poor decision seriously from a guy who's made a bunch of poor decisions.
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I like to think that I am good friends with my CP outside of work. But I can tell you hands down, if I eff up inside (or even outside of work) that means nothing. Work is work and not work is not work. That said, what you do outside of work can affect your job, friend or no friend.
 
My instincts say to make them fire you. A resignation (to me) is a tacit admission of guilt.

This next part you'll need to consult a lawyer on, but it seems to me that being the second pilot on a single pilot airplane means that you were essentially a passenger. You had no direct authority or control over the conduct of the flight. So they're firing you for....what, exactly? Sounds to me like they're offering you up as a sacrificial lamb so that they can show they took some action in the aftermath of the accident.

And, as everyone else has said: Lawyer up and shut up! What you don't say you don't have to take back at the hearing.

One more thing; when I say lawyer up, it's not about keeping or getting back your job. That ship has sailed. It's about protecting your name and reputation.
 
image-2858825722.jpg
 
Derg said:
I'm going to go ahead and say "Umm, dream on"

You do dumb things in big airplanes and its a big deal. You can do certain things and seek help, but you're under the gun for the remainder of your stay. At the places you probably want to work, there are certain "non starters". Second, third tier, who knows.

Hell, we've had a guy that smarted off in court over a minor traffic ticket about how dare a judge, well judge him about what a safe speed was because he was responsible for more lives than your honor could ever imagine.

Off to TruckMasters he went after the court ordered psychological evaluation.

Two things: keep your nose clean. Never represent yourself in court.

Ever.
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Two guys at your shop, a captain at United and they all still have their job after completing "charm school". Those are the ones I personally know. Meaning I've talked to them one on one about it. I'm not condoning it, I'm just saying it's not all "it never happens here", it happens, I've seen it, we've all seen it. You're going to have a better career if you don't f up. It has happened at the majors and will continue to happen. I'm just saying don't judge some one because of an indiscretion, if they're smart they will come out the other side better people. The people I know were already on property when it happened, it still happened. There almost 25,000 pilots on property at Delta and United alone. They're not all choir boys/girls. If they were the HIMS program wouldn't be needed.

I don't know the details of the court case you mentioned. I highly doubt it's the first time he/she did some thing like that, or they were on probation. ALPA is usually pretty good about keeping some ones job. I'm guessing he/she had priors and the company finally had a way to get rid of him.
 
Phil Schuyler said:
My instincts say to make them fire you. A resignation (to me) is a tacit admission of guilt.

This next part you'll need to consult a lawyer on, but it seems to me that being the second pilot on a single pilot airplane means that you were essentially a passenger. You had no direct authority or control over the conduct of the flight. So they're firing you for....what, exactly? Sounds to me like they're offering you up as a sacrificial lamb so that they can show they took some action in the aftermath of the accident.

And, as everyone else has said: Lawyer up and shut up! What you don't say you don't have to take back at the hearing.

One more thing; when I say lawyer up, it's not about keeping or getting back your job. That ship has sailed. It's about protecting your name and reputation.
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Single pilot airplane, two crew required under the OpSpec for this company.

Derek
 
PositionAndHold said:
Two guys at your shop, a captain at United and they all still have their job after completing "charm school". Those are the ones I personally know. Meaning I've talked to them one on one about it. I'm not condoning it, I'm just saying it's not all "it never happens here", it happens, I've seen it, we've all seen it. You're going to have a better career if you don't f up. It has happened at the majors and will continue to happen. I'm just saying don't judge some one because of an indiscretion, if they're smart they will come out the other side better people. The people I know were already on property when it happened, it still happened. There almost 25,000 pilots on property at Delta and United alone. They're not all choir boys/girls. If they were the HIMS program wouldn't be needed.

I don't know the details of the court case you mentioned. I highly doubt it's the first time he/she did some thing like that, or they were on probation. ALPA is usually pretty good about keeping some ones job. I'm guessing he/she had priors and the company finally had a way to get rid of him.
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This. People are allowed to do dumb things in their life provided they turn out better for it and didn't hurt anyone while they were doing it - and even then, you still may be able to do fine provided you learned and became a better person. Yes, not f-ing up is always the best course of action, but this is life - people should be allowed to do dumb things without it tainting their reputation in perpetuity.

People need to have some compassion. Something some thing casting the first stone.
 
BobDDuck said:
I think the point is that, in theory, a chief pilot (and an ACP) is supposed to be THE example of "the aviator". Good decision making, good leadership, gets along with everybody, stands up for the pilots against management wrath, etc etc. Of course, very few CPs are actually like this and in fact, many are management stooges who got to where they are for doing the absolute opposite of those things listed above. I know I'd have a hard time taking criticism about making a poor decision seriously from a guy who's made a bunch of poor decisions.
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I think the important thing to remember here, especially with the recent posts in this thread, is that poor decisions get made every day. The complete lack off class demonstrated by a few for the beating a guy just took would lead me away from choosing them for any kind of management position. If you want to call yourself (not necessarily directed at you, or anyone really) a professional, then you need to act like one. I'm just as guilty as the next guy. But I try my best to refrain from personal attacks as much as possible. There are some posts here as of late that are the shining example of the exact opposite. And I fully expect to be called to the living room carpet for it, in a "hey man, WTF" moment.
 
PositionAndHold said:
Two guys at your shop, a captain at United and they all still have their job after completing "charm school". Those are the ones I personally know.
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I'm going to go ahead and, again, call "BS".

That's not what "Charm School" or "In Command" is for. In fact, I think I'm due myself! :)

Sorry bro.
 
Edit:

@PositionAndHold - Just to clarify, it's nothing personal, I just think you're getting a very sanitized version of the story.

"Charm School", more technically known as "InCommand" is more or less a "drum circle" of sorts where new captains and more experienced captains get together at WHQ and talk about leadership issues, the state of the company and management, including the CEO come in and you can have a candid and casual conversation about what was, what is and what will be with the airline.

It's not something you go to after disciplinary actions and come out a polished soul. It's really more of a "Knights of the Round Table" event with a catered lunch, "supposedly" behind-the-scene information and then chug some beers and disassemble some buffalo wings with the CEO and other management leaders later that evening.

On the issue at hand, if you make an honest mistake and fess us, have a good attitude, the company and the union will work with you. Make a decision for the right reasons and it doesn't work out, ok.

Bring shame to the corporation or shrug it off as "no big deal man, who cares", your career with the company is over. You don't have to stop flying, but chances are, that person isn't going to fly here.

One simply doesn't recover after getting caught shooting heroine with two dead prostitutes slowly braising in the hot tub and a Tony Montana mound of cocaine.

The company is forgiving for good people who are humble about human frailty.

It is unrelenting for lackadaisical souls who think they have a stack of "get out of jail free cards", provide non-factual information, or think they're going to bully their way out of scrutiny.
 
Derg said:
Edit:

@PositionAndHold - Just to clarify, it's nothing personal, I just think you're getting a very sanitized version of the story.

"Charm School", more technically known as "InCommand" is more or less a "drum circle" of sorts where new captains and more experienced captains get together at WHQ and talk about leadership issues, the state of the company and management, including the CEO come in and you can have a candid and casual conversation about what was, what is and what will be with the airline.

It's not something you go to after disciplinary actions and come out a polished soul. It's really more of a "Knights of the Round Table" event with a catered lunch, "supposedly" behind-the-scene information and then chug some beers and disassemble some buffalo wings with the CEO and other management leaders later that evening.

On the issue at hand, if you make an honest mistake and fess us, have a good attitude, the company and the union will work with you. Make a decision for the right reasons and it doesn't work out, ok.

Bring shame to the corporation or shrug it off as "no big deal man, who cares", your career with the company is over.

One simply doesn't recover after getting caught shooting heroine with two dead prostitutes slowly braising in the hot tub and a Tony Montana mound of cocaine.

The company is forgiving for good people who are humble about human frailty.

It is unrelenting for lackadaisical souls who think they have a stack of "get out of jail free cards", provide non-factual information, or think they're going to bully their way out of scrutiny.
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I don't know if Delta has a "charm" school per se, but at my (regional) airline we do have a remedial CRM program where we send the trouble cases, left and right seat alike. I've positively no desire to experience eCRM from that point of view. It is colloquially referred to as "charm school."

And you bring up an interesting difference between on-duty screwups (e.g. leaving part of my enhanced wingtip in another airplane's tail) and off-duty conduct, too. To me, it might almost be easier to recover from an on-duty screwup. "I goofed, here's what happened and I'm sorry" is a lot easier to handle than "I was found tied to my hotel room bed naked with a ball gag, and two ... never mind, I can't tell the rest of this story in @Derg's living room," or "I was driving drunk and got caught doing it." The former is an operational matter that is one of those things that isn't supposed to happen, but does happen in so many hours; the other is a direct result of your choices and conduct. Indeed for some reason DUI sits particularly poorly with me. Not only do YOU have a problem at that point, but your problem becomes everyone else's problem on the road, and they're put at extreme risk by your conduct.
 
killbilly said:
1) Lawyer up ASAP.
2) Speak of this no more, anywhere on the internet or anywhere else, except to your attorney, while this is pending.
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This! 10 Bazillion times this!! Stop talking about this to anyone but your lawyer.
 
Derg said:
Edit:

@PositionAndHold - Just to clarify, it's nothing personal, I just think you're getting a very sanitized version of the story.

"Charm School", more technically known as "InCommand" is more or less a "drum circle" of sorts where new captains and more experienced captains get together at WHQ and talk about leadership issues, the state of the company and management, including the CEO come in and you can have a candid and casual conversation about what was, what is and what will be with the airline.

It's not something you go to after disciplinary actions and come out a polished soul. It's really more of a "Knights of the Round Table" event with a catered lunch, "supposedly" behind-the-scene information and then chug some beers and disassemble some buffalo wings with the CEO and other management leaders later that evening.

On the issue at hand, if you make an honest mistake and fess us, have a good attitude, the company and the union will work with you. Make a decision for the right reasons and it doesn't work out, ok.

Bring shame to the corporation or shrug it off as "no big deal man, who cares", your career with the company is over. You don't have to stop flying, but chances are, that person isn't going to fly here.

One simply doesn't recover after getting caught shooting heroine with two dead prostitutes slowly braising in the hot tub and a Tony Montana mound of cocaine.

The company is forgiving for good people who are humble about human frailty.

It is unrelenting for lackadaisical souls who think they have a stack of "get out of jail free cards", provide non-factual information, or think they're going to bully their way out of scrutiny.
Click to expand...
Nothing personal at all. The bold is more what I was talking about.

I think we're/I am getting terms crossed. All the old guys around the airport used to call any "rehabilitation program" whether it be drugs or alcohol (usually alcohol) charm school. It also came with several months off, most of the time with out pay.

I didn't mean to imply one has a stack of get out of jail free cards and that a DUI was any thing but bad for ones career. I haven't had one and I plan on keeping it that way. I was just pointing out it is a little presumptuous for some one to say they didn't want to work for a major that hires some one with rockmans background. It was a little holier than thou, especially since I know of several cases of guys who were able to come back after going through rehab/HIMS programs. I was also just speaking mostly to DUI's and alcohol abuse, not really even thinking about the dead hookers and mountain of coke in a hot tub scenario. I figured every one knew the hookers and blow were strictly for us part 91 guys any way. :)
 
I think it depends on the circumstances. If you are being fired for something along the lines of refusing a flight due to fatigue or some other safety related issue, then let them fire you. If you are being fired cause you yelled at a passenger for the third time after being warned, and with letters of reprimand in your file, then I say resign.
 
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