Oops...stuck mic houston center

[MikeD]

CAL guys have flown with CAL SCABS for years with no problems. I can't imagine that any flight crew would look at this guy worse than CAL people look at CAL SCABS. Maybe this is an unrealistic expectation of humanity though...unfortunately Mr. Weaksauce won't be able to see this and let me know so I'm not sure what to think.

Before or after the CAL scabs were reintegrated?

 

[WacoFan]

Before or after the CAL scabs were reintegrated?

After reintegration. ATN makes the case that this guys behavior would create a hostile work environment (and I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with that - it would depend on the individual people feeling hostility - some would, some wouldn't). The point is though, I can't imagine a more hostile work environment than a SCAB and a full-term striker after the strike in a cockpit - but CAL has been able to function with this dynamic.

 

[derg]

Obviously I don't fly for Continental, but two more questions I want to throw out there before setting the "Tare Weight" on the issue by using CAL.

AFAIK, I think it's base dependent at CAL, at least in the old days. I flew a CAL jumpseater to EWR once that made a comment about not wanting to fly with the scabs at a particular base, even though it was closer to where he lived. I don't know how valid that is now, or even if most of those guys are gone...

And you can't leave out UAL. That's a airline where if you were an '85 scab, it certainly wasn't koombayah, let bygones be bygones at all.

 

[WacoFan]

Obviously I don't fly for Continental, but two more questions I want to throw out there before setting the "Tare Weight" on the issue by using CAL.

AFAIK, I think it's base dependent at CAL, at least in the old days. I flew a CAL jumpseater to EWR once that made a comment about not wanting to fly with the scabs at a particular base, even though it was closer to where he lived. I don't know how valid that is now, or even if most of those guys are gone...

And you can't leave out UAL. That's a airline where if you were an '85 scab, it certainly wasn't koombayah, let bygones be bygones at all.

Certainly UAL also fits. The idea is that ATN posts that the Captains homophobia/ageism creates a hostile work environment that other crew perhaps can't, or shouldn't have to live with. I guess what I was asking was - is this Captain's comments more inflammatory than a mixed SCAB/Striker crew? I simply can't imagine anything more hostile than that - and those airlines have operated in that manner. Not saying it was pleasant, but it certainly was doable. I guess in a larger sense I'm trying to gauge if what this guy did is potentially more/less destructive to crew morale and CRM than having a SCAB/non-SCAB mixed crew.

 

[Bumblebee]

Certainly UAL also fits. The idea is that ATN posts that the Captains homophobia/ageism creates a hostile work environment that other crew perhaps can't, or shouldn't have to live with. I guess what I was asking was - is this Captain's comments more inflammatory than a mixed SCAB/Striker crew? I simply can't imagine anything more hostile than that - and those airlines have operated in that manner. Not saying it was pleasant, but it certainly was doable. I guess in a larger sense I'm trying to gauge if what this guy did is potentially more/less destructive to crew morale and CRM than having a SCAB/non-SCAB mixed crew.

besides the many interpersonal relationships that have gone sour, but people still have to fly together and get along.

 

[WacoFan]

besides the many interpersonal relationships that have gone sour, but people still have to fly together and get along.

I guess that is my point. ATN points out that some things are heinous to the point of not being able to work together. I contend that if SCAB/non-SCAB flight crews can work together successfully - and this is proven since 83 (CAL) and 85 (UAL) then that just about trumps everything and renders his point not true. Certainly not disagreeing with the sentiment he states, but the conclusion.

 

[FlyingScot]

AFAIK, I think it's base dependent at CAL, at least in the old days. I flew a CAL jumpseater to EWR once that made a comment about not wanting to fly with the scabs at a particular base, even though it was closer to where he lived. I don't know how valid that is now, or even if most of those guys are gone...

.

I am not sure the timing of the CAL strike but when you say those people are gone. Was it so long ago that those involved have mostly retired or have moved on because their life was uncomfortable as a scab following the strike?

I think there is a big difference comparing this to scab vs non scab post strike. That conflict and the scabs had the backing of the company. I am sure the instructions to all crew members after the strike was "get along or else" or something of that nature. The scabs I am sure were protected by the company as much as it could.

This incident has been a huge embarrassment for Southwest, with outcry from all sorts of groups representing the different "gays, grannies and grandes". He has become a huge liability for the company. That and he has exposed all of our dirty little secret. Southwest is backpedaling from support of the pilot and even changing company policies in regards to any incidents similar to this. I think his support will be very thin for any future transgressions. He may want to continue broadcasting everything he says from here on out and maybe add a video cam feed of his daily activities to prove his side of the story of any future incidents.

 

[OldTownPilot]

As far as CAL now, i can't imaging there would be any SCAB/Striker crews now sans line checks, we are talking more than 15 years ago, I'd imagine that every striker has upgraded now. As for back in the day, i'm sure it was very much a checklists only atmosphere much of the time.

As far as scabs that are still flying I'd have to ask pops but I'd imagine its around 300 or so. A lot have retired by now.

 

[FlyingScot]

I was just thinking if he gets forced out of Southwest and has to interview elsewhere.

I think he may cringe every time a questions starts out "Tell me about a time".

 

[Mike Lewis]

What a great day for America....What a great day for humanity...:clap::clap::clap: Good job guys..Way to go! Pat yourselves on the back..I'm sure if you shared some of your thoughts and opinions expressed here with your respective CEO's you'll get a gold star next to your name for the day....And tomorrow they will still be trying to figure out how to pay you less and charge you more for everything from TV's to tangerines.

Hyperbole much?

 

[SteveC]

Certainly UAL also fits. The idea is that ATN posts that the Captains homophobia/ageism creates a hostile work environment that other crew perhaps can't, or shouldn't have to live with. I guess what I was asking was - is this Captain's comments more inflammatory than a mixed SCAB/Striker crew? I simply can't imagine anything more hostile than that - and those airlines have operated in that manner. Not saying it was pleasant, but it certainly was doable. I guess in a larger sense I'm trying to gauge if what this guy did is potentially more/less destructive to crew morale and CRM than having a SCAB/non-SCAB mixed crew.

I guess that is my point. ATN points out that some things are heinous to the point of not being able to work together. I contend that if SCAB/non-SCAB flight crews can work together successfully - and this is proven since 83 (CAL) and 85 (UAL) then that just about trumps everything and renders his point not true. Certainly not disagreeing with the sentiment he states, but the conclusion.

I think you are unfairly overstating ATN's position and drawing conclusions that he has not stated. He never says nor implies that it "...creates a hostile work environment that other crew perhaps can't, or shouldn't have to live with", nor does he say nor imply that this is "...heinous to the point of not being able to work together."

That's a completely unrealistic expectation of human behavior. A large portion (majority?) of the flight attendant workforce has now been not only insulted by this guy, but he stated "I hate all of them." To think that every one of those flight attendants who now flies with him won't allow it to affect their opinion of his leadership (even subconsciously) is fantasy. He is now weakened as a pilot in command, probably irreparably. Just expecting his coworkers to ignore what they know he thinks is ridiculous, and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of human behavior.

Sorry, Dale, but like I said, that's just not realistic. That's not how people react. It's certainly a wonderful thing to aspire to, and we all should, but in reality, it won't happen. At least not completely. On some level, all of his fellow employees will look at him differently from now on. That's just the way it is.

 

[WacoFan]

I've run into this several times as an FO, and I've always just said "hey, that crap isn't appropriate." That has always gotten them to shut up. If it wouldn't, though, I'd probably bypass pro standards and go straight to HR. Racism and bigotry is a bit different than the normal pro standards stuff.

That's a completely unrealistic expectation of human behavior. A large portion (majority?) of the flight attendant workforce has now been not only insulted by this guy, but he stated "I hate all of them." To think that every one of those flight attendants who now flies with him won't allow it to affect their opinion of his leadership (even subconsciously) is fantasy. He is now weakened as a pilot in command, probably irreparably. Just expecting his coworkers to ignore what they know he thinks is ridiculous, and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of human behavior.

I think you are unfairly overstating ATN's position and drawing conclusions that he has not stated. He never says nor implies that it "...creates a hostile work environment that other crew perhaps can't, or shouldn't have to live with", nor does he say nor imply that this is "...heinous to the point of not being able to work together."

Perhaps I was overstating his view, but my questions were more about SCAB/non-SCAB crews than this situation. If you are a unionist and you believe someone has really taken action to harm your ability to feed your family I would think that is a much bigger deal than this guy. I guess I'm wondering, would you rather fly with a SCAB or a bigot?

 

[Bumblebee]

I'd rather fly with a bigot, than a scab....it's one thing to open your face and spew idiocy, and quite another to be so short sighted and selfish to put your own career and others at jeopardy...you see I can tell someone to shut their pie hole, but the stench of a scab is forever.

Perhaps I was overstating his view, but my questions were more about SCAB/non-SCAB crews than this situation. If you are a unionist and you believe someone has really taken action to harm your ability to feed your family I would think that is a much bigger deal than this guy. I guess I'm wondering, would you rather fly with a SCAB or a bigot?

 

[Greg Davis]

What are the legal ramifications? I've heard this guy can get in FCC trouble because ATC frequencies are public airwaves. Much in the sameway a DJ can be fined for swearing on the radio?

 

[Apophis]

What are the legal ramifications? I've heard this guy can get in FCC trouble because ATC frequencies are public airwaves. Much in the sameway a DJ can be fined for swearing on the radio?

They could probably fine him, if it comes to that. Personally (as I've mentioned earlier), this event has really run its course. I hope the FCC doesn't get involved; too much has been made of this event already.

 

[nbv4]

First off, I don't think we should judge this man by what he said in that stuck mike rant. When you regularly do 5+ hour flights, unless you're a complete dork, you're going to at some point in your career find yourself in a situation where you've let your guard down while conversing with the other pilot next to you, and you've just said something inappropriate. It doesn't make you a bigot or a homophobe or anything like that. Its not unreasonable for someone to think offcolor jokes or politically incorrect rants or things like that can be funny under the right context. You all have to realize that this rant wasn't prepared and given by this pilot, it was taken out of context and transmitted by accident. The guy who said those embarrassing things should issue a public apology to the flight SW flight attendants, then back to normal. It'll probably help his game too. Chicks really dig it when men make apologies that appear to be genuine.

 

[WacoFan]

I'd rather fly with a bigot, than a scab....it's one thing to open your face and spew idiocy, and quite another to be so short sighted and selfish to put your own career and others at jeopardy...you see I can tell someone to shut their pie hole, but the stench of a scab is forever.

That's how I would feel too.

 

[Vector4Food]

You would think flying with a scab would be impossible... any Union Scabber should not be able to get to work, since their tires should be flattened on a regular basis.

 

[MikeD]

You would think flying with a scab would be impossible... any Union Scabber should not be able to get to work, since their tires should be flattened on a regular basis.

Should. But it was in the best interest to forgive the CAL scabs.

 

[stesta5074]

okay I'll bite. What is a scab?