ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Both of these are good points. I agree. Redact my previous statement.
one engine inoperative landing
- Thread starter bLizZuE
- Start date
Both of these are good points. I agree. Redact my previous statement.
29.92inHg
Well-Known Member
Nice story, and for the record I would declare an emergency, I mean you don't have to go screaming mayday, but if that engine isn't starting you aren't going to have many go around options, fuel balance starts to be an issue, granted you can cross feed, and it would be nice to have priority, plus in the event you may deviate from any FAR's (off glideslope,etc...) I think it would be nice to have the emergency already declared instead of waiting until then, plus you don't know what else is wrong that is causing the engine not to start again. You could have larger issues. There really is no reason, and I think people make bad situations worse, by not asking for help, but to each their own
As far as the fuel selector issue, I don't mind using it, I get the thought process for not touching it, but in the Twin Commanche, 310, and a few others there are Aux tanks you are always switching too, and by the logic that you might not get it in the detent when you bring it back, the AUX tank switch would be a death defying maneuver, as well as switching tanks in a single low wing. If its policy, so be it, but I don't really see the issue if you are careful.
As far as the fuel selector issue, I don't mind using it, I get the thought process for not touching it, but in the Twin Commanche, 310, and a few others there are Aux tanks you are always switching too, and by the logic that you might not get it in the detent when you bring it back, the AUX tank switch would be a death defying maneuver, as well as switching tanks in a single low wing. If its policy, so be it, but I don't really see the issue if you are careful.
gomntwins
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it's actually a lot nicer after you declare an emergency actually. My last engine I shut down was the left engine. Tower wanted me to fly right downwind, and I just said 'no'. My right engine was running so it wanted to turn left anway (i wanted left downwind). I could keep the airport in sight out my left window better and it wanted to turn left anyway, so that's what I wanted. It's really nice saying, 'no' I'm gonna fly left downwind and I don't care what you think. It was a nice night, nice weather, but I didn't care. Screw noise abatement, screw standard procedure, I just want to get this stupid thing on the ground. It wasn't my fault the engine failed, I just want to land and smoke a cigarette. And that's exactly what I did.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Lol, that's pretty much my standard cheated-death-again move.
TUCKnTRUCK
That guy
Anyways, if you tell atc you have lost an engine, E word or not, guess what they are gonna do?(hint would be, just about the same thing as they would if u declare)
Declaring actually makes it easier fir most all involved... And is then the only legal way they can give you priority. Telling atc you've got an emergency doesn't hurt anybody, so if there is something not normal going on that significant affects the performance of your craft, call it. They will never come after you for declaring an emergency... Unless it's cause you're #5 in the hold and just want to pee...
Declaring actually makes it easier fir most all involved... And is then the only legal way they can give you priority. Telling atc you've got an emergency doesn't hurt anybody, so if there is something not normal going on that significant affects the performance of your craft, call it. They will never come after you for declaring an emergency... Unless it's cause you're #5 in the hold and just want to pee...
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
A lot of good discussion has gone on here, but I've gotta speak up on this one.
If an engine has shut down (for whatever reason), and you cannot get it back going again, that right there is more than worth declaring an emergency. Not declaring an emergency does not earn extra hairs on your chest or make your juevos clang any louder.
Declaring an emergency literally does exactly what you were already asking them to- give you priority and ensure that the likelihood of a go-around would primarily be your doing.
The performance of a piston twin is reduced so bad that declaring an emergency when she doesn't start spinning should be one of the first things on your list during the "communicate" portion of dealing with the situation.
Having the trucks waiting for you never killed anyone (at least that wasn't already toast).... nor will the tiny amount of added paperwork, if any.
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
Bingo!
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
On the flip side of this though, I knew a captain in the 1900C who lost one on the way back home, he was empty, and advised tower, but didn't declare. When I asked him why he didn't when I heard the story he said, "use what you need, nothing more. I didn't need the trucks out there, I was empty, had really long runways with good VFR and good approaches at my destination. I had an airplane with extra power to boot, no need for it, I was basically just a lop-sided caravan for the half hour of my trip."
I dunno, I've never had to shut one down, so all I have is advice from others.
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
Whoops. If a turbine engine is shut down in flight, it's a reg that an emergency must be declared.
That, and I consider his judgement and paring down the situation very irresponsible.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Which reg, gotta source for me (not trying to be a dick, just curious)
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
I'm trying to find it, as I knew you were going to ask. At the very least it's a mandatory report.
If it's a mandatory report- I'd rather have an emergency declared regardless if I knew there was going to be paperwork involved.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
You have to notify the NTSB when you have a failure of structural components of a turbine engine excluding blah blah blah... (830.5)
135.417 refers to notifying the local FSDO about engine failures on multis within 10 days.
ohh, and bear in mind this flight was conducted under part 91 for a 135 operation not 121, god only knows what kooky hijinks the airlines have to comply with
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
That's pretty much it. If there's a required notification of a failure of a component of the aircraft, that's pretty dang safety related. I'd declare an emergency to ensure all my bases were covered.
Think about if that guy had jacked up the landing on that Beech... just another way they could have found a way to hang him out to dry was not declaring an emergency when the performance of your aircraft is degraded.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
This is true, and I agree with your assessment, that being said, ATC was notified of the situation, so if he would have slid off the end he might have been in deep Kimchee with the Feds, but as far as I can tell, all of his bases were covered per the Fars except for the catchall "careless and reckless". He was almost surprised I even asked.
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
His attitude is pretty prevalent among "lower end" operations. I remember hearing similar from Pinnacle captains before the feds really came down on the company after the string of accidents and incidents.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
The joys of 135.
bLizZuE
Calling for engine starts en français
To the comments on declaring an emergency, I will always declare for a few reasons. One, it's company policy that during any abnormality or malfunction that could potentially create hazard, to declare the emergency. Things like unsafe gear lights, or feathered propellers fall into this catagory. Second, the single engine situation isn't the specific emergency itself, the emergency would be the side-effects of the situation. IE: unable to hold altitude, the possibility of a single engine go-around, or any other numerous complication to an already complex issue.
Declaring an emergency isn't taboo, it's never anything you have to be afraid of. It makes sure you have the priority you need, and gives you some breathing room should you need it. I always encourage my students to never hesitate, with common sense and good airmanship, kind of a 'shoot first, ask questions later'.
I think there are a lot of pilots that feel declaring an emergency is a hassle, or a burden. It is neither, and should be taught to anyone with the title CFI as such. Use it as a security blanket to know that you're going to get taken care of, no matter how little or how much you need it.
Declaring an emergency isn't taboo, it's never anything you have to be afraid of. It makes sure you have the priority you need, and gives you some breathing room should you need it. I always encourage my students to never hesitate, with common sense and good airmanship, kind of a 'shoot first, ask questions later'.
I think there are a lot of pilots that feel declaring an emergency is a hassle, or a burden. It is neither, and should be taught to anyone with the title CFI as such. Use it as a security blanket to know that you're going to get taken care of, no matter how little or how much you need it.
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Now I'm not sure if he was filed for IFR or not, but:
And - for you guys who wouldn't declare an emergency in a light twin (which doesn't have the Part 25 "climb on one engine" capability), consider this: the aircraft I fly is more than capable of flying, and doing it fairly well, on a single engine. However, if one of our powerplants goes down, we are declaring an emergency.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
After listening to BDHill's last transmissions, after he lost his only engine, it didn't seem like he or the tower seemed very concerned. He died from something us flight instructors practice on nearly a daily basis. If he had declared an emergency, he would have had emergency crews waiting on him. Not saying it would have saved his life, or trying to throw his decisions under the bus, just using it as a real world example. It seemed like something routine, but it cost him his life.
JJink
New Member
There are two types of emergencies. Precautionary and OhMyGawdWeAreGonnaDie.
For me there will be only two cases that I would declare it. One is a real emergency and the other because I am planning on breaking the FARs. I better give an example before you guys shoot me down.
Ex: complete flap failure on an aircraft that has an approach speed of 200+Knots no flaps which can easily become in violation of speed limit. No flap landing is not an emergency as you know.
I am not a career pilot but I can understand company policy requirements and part 121/135 operations when it comes to declaring an emergency but when you are operating under part 91 (Ah, freedom) level at 5000FT @ 7miles out from your airport all briefed for an engine shut down and restart and the starter craps out declaring immediately an emergency is at PIC discretion especially when your home airport is high on traffic flow with jets landing one after another and you carry no passengers. You can always declare it later if you don’t get what you want. Now if the engine quits for some unknown reason then that can be different situation.
Pilot in Command decisions are final..................not the controllers or the FAA who are not up there with you.
As I remember structural failures and fires are the only times it must be reported.
For me there will be only two cases that I would declare it. One is a real emergency and the other because I am planning on breaking the FARs. I better give an example before you guys shoot me down.
Ex: complete flap failure on an aircraft that has an approach speed of 200+Knots no flaps which can easily become in violation of speed limit. No flap landing is not an emergency as you know.
I am not a career pilot but I can understand company policy requirements and part 121/135 operations when it comes to declaring an emergency but when you are operating under part 91 (Ah, freedom) level at 5000FT @ 7miles out from your airport all briefed for an engine shut down and restart and the starter craps out declaring immediately an emergency is at PIC discretion especially when your home airport is high on traffic flow with jets landing one after another and you carry no passengers. You can always declare it later if you don’t get what you want. Now if the engine quits for some unknown reason then that can be different situation.
Pilot in Command decisions are final..................not the controllers or the FAA who are not up there with you.
As I remember structural failures and fires are the only times it must be reported.