Oh SFO tower

roundout said:
He literally did. We have to make sure the plane is going to the right place. Fixes, frequencies, headings or tracks, altitudes or altitude constraints, engine out procedures, flap and thrust settings, and V speeds are all runway-dependent. Change a runway, change all that, and it all has to be verified.

If that takes 1 more, it takes 1 minute. If it takes 5 it takes 5. Set the brake.
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G'dammit! Uggh!

Yes, I UNDERSTAND that. (This is the 5th or 6th time I've stated that.)

My point is, you were asked to do all that PREVIOUSLY. You were supposed to be ready with all that already completed!

If you did NOT accomplish all that previously, just own it and respond, "UNABLE". Don't BS yourself or others.

Why can't so many of you guys get over your defensive, seemingly pre-briefed reactions and actually look at the specific facts of a situation?

I'm not asking anyone to act outside his comfort zone. I'm not asking anyone to do anything stupid. I'm not even asking anyone to act in abrogation of company policy.

I'm just asking people to set aside personal/tribal peccadillos and personal/tribal proclivities and BE HONEST in accordance with the objective evidence in ANY situation. Own the truth.
 
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Delta took the runway when ATC advised traffic was 10 mile final. A little quick math by the crew and they should have said: holding short, we need more time.

Delta owns this one, but there is really nothing to own.

The lady ATC'er was a bitch. An unknow voice should have transmitted... Tower, were we married once?
 
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arkflyr said:
They are still around, right before Covid I had a Denver center controller up front. He said it was a pain to do but worth it for him since he was using it for personal travel.

It was insightful picking his brain on why things work they way they do, and it was funny listening to him talk poop on other controllers. We also asked him about what his peeves were in general and about our airline specifically. It’s funny because his chief complaint about us was something I ever really noticed but now I hear it all the time and really try not to let it happen to me. It was “you guys never answer the radio on the first call”.

Overall it was really good and I wish it happened more often.
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I thought it would have been, you guys never send pizza anymore.
 
derg said:
Apparently not for him tho! :eek:
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Don’t think I’d work someplace that didn’t have 401k with some matching funds. It a game, like collecting frequent flyer miles. I put in the max and have for decades.
 
Not gonna read 11 pages…

In the 220, switching runways involves changing the runway in the FMS, inputting the new perf numbers, verifying by the other pilot, and 3 checklists (runway change ECL takes you back though taxi and before takeoff). That’s at LEAST 3m with numbers in hand and a sharp crew. And NONE of that happens while we’re taxiing across, or onto a runway…

IMO crew shoulda stayed put short of 28L, and not taken the bait when ATC tried to start a fight. And ATC should be counseled on radio discipline.

I was just there the other day, and was actually waiting for this exact scenario to happen to us!
 
arkflyr said:
They are still around, right before Covid I had a Denver center controller up front. He said it was a pain to do but worth it for him since he was using it for personal travel.

It was insightful picking his brain on why things work they way they do, and it was funny listening to him talk poop on other controllers. We also asked him about what his peeves were in general and about our airline specifically. It’s funny because his chief complaint about us was something I ever really noticed but now I hear it all the time and really try not to let it happen to me. It was “you guys never answer the radio on the first call”.

Overall it was really good and I wish it happened more often.
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I wouldn't say "never". But I know from listening it's a LOT!
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
1L/1R are closed.

The ATIS clearly says get runway numbers and brief for both 28L and 28R.

Delta DID only ask for 2 minutes.

And then the Delta pilots proceed to be, well, Delta.

Controller is 100% right.

Good on her for chewing out Delta. Sometimes, that's exactly what's needed with type A personalities.



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZzBTZctiAg
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Completely unprofessional by the controller. She said they have 5 minutes and then says two, and has no idea how to operate the aircraft, but scolds them for that. Delta should have just held short and taken the time to figure it out, though.
 
CoffeeIcePapers said:
Completely unprofessional by the controller. She said they have 5 minutes and then says two, and has no idea how to operate the aircraft, but scolds them for that. Delta should have just held short and taken the time to figure it out, though.
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Like I mentioned before, I get the feeling that the perception of when the 5 minute clock started, was perceived differently by both entities. I think tower assumed it started it when it was issued, before even crossing 28L, not knowing that the crew isn’t going to be heads down on taxi making changes, especially when crossing one runway on their way to the departure runway. And Delta may have thought it started at line up and wait, hence why they were surprised at the amount of time they really had when they got there, because they wouldn’t be heads down during taxi doing stuff.

A hold short would’ve indeed alleviated all of this. One that should’ve been issued from the get go by ATC when Delta said they needed a reasonable few mins to make needed changes; or one requested by the crew at the outset, or at least accepted when it was eventually offered by ATC.
 
^ I actually think the interpretation of the clock starts when the expect is given, makes more logical sense. Not really defending the way the controller handled it, but I would have probably assumed the same had I been in her shoes.

I do think the ATIS there is ludicrous (I thought this the first time I read it after the closures). What if they decide to add "brief all runway departures" once the 1's open up again? Would that be any more reasonable? I do personally think that multiple minutes is a little excessive, but that is just in my metal with our flows and checklists (it's a couple button pushes and the "change triangles" on 3 short checklists). Can't comment on other programs. Yes, these things shouldn't be accomplished while navigating a complicated taxi route or crossing an active runway of course, so I guess that could add some time, though the straightaway to the 28s is pretty simple and probably well long enough

***caveat......if we pushed for new T/O numbers due to the TPR being invalid for whatever reason, those couple button pushes would be quite a few more + waiting for ACARS, though a smart person in this case would have pushed for both runways, thus alleviating the problem.
 
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I will add...

They were given a runway change right before making that turn to hold short of 28L, like 200 feet or less from holding short and they are given a runway change and a line up and wait. You can hear in the controller's voice that she is having a bad day. I have never been given a runway change and a line up and wait call like that from ATC in my career as an airline pilot. Delta shouldn't have accepted it but they assumed they had 5 minutes to figure it out. Both are to blame but the job of ATC is to control traffic, she should have known better than to give a runway change to a crew like that and rush, especially given the number of close calls we have had on runways lately...

Every time I have been given a runway change on the 28s in SFO it has been thousands of feet before the threshold. In fact, is is typically crossing the 1s when we get a runway change if we do. Very poor planing, in fact piss poor planning by ATC, and Delta needed to stand up for themselves a bit better.
 
Inverted said:
she should have known better than to give a runway change to a crew like that and rush, especially given the number of close calls we have had on runways lately...
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I think it’s possible thats why she added the offer of a hold short, if needed; as she potentially might have realized she could possibly jamming up the crew. I have no concrete idea if that was the case, but the offer of the hold short to Delta seemingly came as an afterthought to the already-assigned line up and wait clearance. Just a random thought of a possibility.
 
This thread keeps going around and around and around in circles.

I think the real lesson is that it’s our jobs to slow down and make time when needed.

We are paid to pump the brakes in the name of safety and it’s things like this, and the other 5000 ASAPable things we see on the road, that are constant reminders to slow down and take our time to do it right and proper.

It’s not about 737 vs 320 procedures and triangles vs. departure change checklists… it’s about the lesson that we need to use the TEM tools and not let the operational pressures force us into unnecessary rushing.
 
ClearedForOption said:
This thread keeps going around and around and around in circles.

I think the real lesson is that it’s our jobs to slow down and make time when needed.

We are paid to pump the brakes in the name of safety and it’s things like this, and the other 5000 ASAPable things we see on the road, that are constant reminders to slow down and take our time to do it right and proper.

It’s not about 737 vs 320 procedures and triangles vs. departure change checklists… it’s about the lesson that we need to use the TEM tools and not let the operational pressures force us into unnecessary rushing.
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Agreed.

Slow the operation down. Slow down. Pause.

This stuff will only get worse as staffing becomes worse both within the airline industry and amongst controllers. Air traffic is at an all-time high, travel demand is up, and we are all doing more with less. It is hard in the moment to take a few seconds and say hey, let's slow it down. I make it part of my brief to FOs specifically because if they see me feeling rushed I want them to call it, and if they feel rushed I want them to speak up.

We are moving too fast, doing too much with fewer resources, and we are seeing a ton of close calls. We are closer and closer to a major disaster in the U.S. which is terrifying to me. It should be terrifying to all of us.
 
arkflyr said:
They are still around, right before Covid I had a Denver center controller up front. He said it was a pain to do but worth it for him since he was using it for personal travel.

It was insightful picking his brain on why things work they way they do, and it was funny listening to him talk poop on other controllers. We also asked him about what his peeves were in general and about our airline specifically. It’s funny because his chief complaint about us was something I ever really noticed but now I hear it all the time and really try not to let it happen to me. It was “you guys never answer the radio on the first call”.

Overall it was really good and I wish it happened more often.
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The ATC Jumpseat program has been suspended UFN by the FAA, which is a shame. I’ve flown through my airspace in the cockpit of UAL and HAL and it was really really interesting.

The last memo that went around basically said that FAA staffing is so bad that they think it’s inappropriate to pull us off the scope for a couple days to go ride in the flight deck.

It sucks because it’s really a helpful program. I encouraged all my trainees to go for at least one ride through our airspace and see what is going on up there. In a similar vein I know a lot of pilots have checked out the tower before, but we almost never get tours at the ARTCC or TRACON. Think there’s a lot to be learned on both by sides by observing the other.
 
ITT: people explaining runway change procedures arguing with a guy who apparently expects them to run a runway change checklist at the gate because the atis told them to
 
bimmerphile said:
ITT: people explaining runway change procedures arguing with a guy who apparently expects them to run a runway change checklist at the gate because the atis told them to
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Run the runway change checklist at the gate?


No.


Mention it as a threat and mitigate by discussing the changes you’d see?

Absolutely.


“We might get a runway change to 28R. I see all the data remains the same. The only changes I see are different V speeds and a different flex temp. You load, we’ll verify and run the change items to mitigate.”
 
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