Offloading pax during severe weather
- Thread starter jrh
- Start date
#1. Fire the dispatcher! 
Sorry Krystal but a "pop up" severe thunderstorm and tornado between generating a release and boarding the flight? Aroo?!
#2. Remain on the aircraft. (*)
If there is lightening in the vicinity, ground ops on the ramp are probably shut down so you've got no one to marshall you in anyway.
(*) If you HONESTLY, think a tornado is truly imminent and it's headed your direction, shut it down and head for the ops building.
This is all from my perspective flying the 1900. Now a 402, I have no idea. Much lighter aircraft.
Sorry Krystal but a "pop up" severe thunderstorm and tornado between generating a release and boarding the flight? Aroo?! #2. Remain on the aircraft. (*)
If there is lightening in the vicinity, ground ops on the ramp are probably shut down so you've got no one to marshall you in anyway.
(*) If you HONESTLY, think a tornado is truly imminent and it's headed your direction, shut it down and head for the ops building.
This is all from my perspective flying the 1900. Now a 402, I have no idea. Much lighter aircraft.
I think I'm still wrapped around the idea that there was a severe thunderstorm in the area and passengers were boarded as if they were going to actually go anywhere.
It's the Zombie Apocalypse, you're #2 for takeoff to a reduced rest overnight and your duty day is approaching the limit. Tower shuts the runway down for snowplowing and there is a hoard of the undead that has just breached the airport perimeter and shuffling towards the runway threshold.
Flaps 20 max performance takeoff, do you wait for numbers or do you start a nice slow taxi away from the zombies and toward another runway...
It's the Zombie Apocalypse, you're #2 for takeoff to a reduced rest overnight and your duty day is approaching the limit. Tower shuts the runway down for snowplowing and there is a hoard of the undead that has just breached the airport perimeter and shuffling towards the runway threshold.
Flaps 20 max performance takeoff, do you wait for numbers or do you start a nice slow taxi away from the zombies and toward another runway...
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Keep 'em on. We come into this problem semi often in the CRJ. It can use a jetway, but usually (at least on the United side) it doesn't. Same problem, different sized airplane.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
It's the Zombie Apocalypse, you're #2 for takeoff to a reduced rest overnight and your duty day is approaching the limit. Tower shuts the runway down for snowplowing and there is a hoard of the undead that has just breached the airport perimeter and shuffling towards the runway threshold.
Flaps 20 max performance takeoff, do you wait for numbers or do you start a nice slow taxi away from the zombies and toward another runway...
Trick question. We do our own numbers. Continue.
Manufacturer recommendation during a zombie apocalypse is to leave the gear down for 20 seconds after takeoff to blow off hanging zombies. However, erroneous wheel well fire indications may present due to stragglers chewing through the fire loop. Get an axe.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
I think I'm still wrapped around the idea that there was a severe thunderstorm in the area and passengers were boarded as if they were going to actually go anywhere.
It's the Zombie Apocalypse, you're #2 for takeoff to a reduced rest overnight and your duty day is approaching the limit. Tower shuts the runway down for snowplowing and there is a hoard of the undead that has just breached the airport perimeter and shuffling towards the runway threshold.
Flaps 20 max performance takeoff, do you wait for numbers or do you start a nice slow taxi away from the zombies and toward another runway...
Numbers schmumbers. It's the zombie apocalypse. You stole that airplane anyways, the FAA no longer exists, and as a general rule of thumb "Fuggit, it'll be fine".
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Trick question. We do our own numbers. Continue.
Manufacturer recommendation during a zombie apocalypse is to leave the gear down for 20 seconds after takeoff to blow off hanging zombies. However, erroneous wheel well fire indications may present due to stragglers chewing through the fire loop. Get an axe.
Don't forget about turning around for a 2 foot low pass over the zombies for the lulz
Krystal
Dispatch Betty
#1. Fire the dispatcher!
#2. Remain on the aircraft. (*)
Pppppffffffhhhlllllltttt!!!!!!
I actually have lots of experience with tornados. Ive lived through two and have had several EXTREMELY close calls.
I was home in STL last year when the tornado ate the STL airport. (My apartment was just a couple of miles off of the end of runway 30R) remember, there were pax on board a CRJ parked out on the ramp (My understanding is that they landed but the ramp was closed for lightning) when the field took a direct hit from an ef-4. It was at night and there was almost no warning. It moved the airplane 20 feet. The airplane took straightline winds...not a direct hit from the funnel. Very large airplanes might be able to withstand weaker tornadoes but small airplanes can be just as bad as cars or mobile homes and I would wager to guess that most airplanes, just by the nature of their design, would get tossed by a direct hit from a larger tornado, with the potential of severe damage and passenger injury.
If you have enough warning, deplane the passengers and crew and move them into the terminal building or ops, a hanger, or some other sturdy building. If you have left the terminal and do not have reasonable time to return, shut down, close all window shades and have passengers buckle in and assume the brace/crash position.
Doug, I can see how you're wondering why a dispatcher would have a flight DEPARTING during a tornado-producing storm, but its not unheard of (as in the case of the CRJ at the STL airport last summer) For a plane to make it in ahead of a storm only to get stuck on the ramp unil the storm blows over
jrh
Well-Known Member
Thanks for all the good thoughts, everyone.
I was faced with a similar scenario at my operation, which is what inspired me to start this thread.
There were a chain of somewhat complicated events that lead up to the decision to load and attempt departure with storms nearby. I don't really want to get more specific on an internet forum. But I'll say that given all the circumstances that evening, nobody involved considered it a poor choice--the ramp supervisor, other pilots with my company, or myself. Even with 20/20 hindsight, I still would give the go ahead to load under similar circumstances in the future.
I'd like to point out that other carriers were also taxiing out for departure and ended up holding on the ground, so it wasn't just us crazy amateur little airplane drivers who initially considered the situation reasonable for departing.
Everything was ultimately resolved with the passengers unloaded into a terminal doorway about 40 feet from the aircraft, the storm passed with nothing larger than pea sized hail, the aircraft was undamaged, and we departed after the skies cleared about 30 minutes later.
At the time, I wasn't very happy about how things were handled, but in retrospect, I see that everyone was doing the best they could, based on the information they had. I've talked to the ramp supervisor and dispatcher working our SOC that night and we agree it was the best we could do, all things considered. Sometimes things don't go as intended, but at the end of the day, the passengers were safe, the plane was undamaged, and the flight was completed.
I was faced with a similar scenario at my operation, which is what inspired me to start this thread.
There were a chain of somewhat complicated events that lead up to the decision to load and attempt departure with storms nearby. I don't really want to get more specific on an internet forum. But I'll say that given all the circumstances that evening, nobody involved considered it a poor choice--the ramp supervisor, other pilots with my company, or myself. Even with 20/20 hindsight, I still would give the go ahead to load under similar circumstances in the future.
I'd like to point out that other carriers were also taxiing out for departure and ended up holding on the ground, so it wasn't just us crazy amateur little airplane drivers who initially considered the situation reasonable for departing.
Everything was ultimately resolved with the passengers unloaded into a terminal doorway about 40 feet from the aircraft, the storm passed with nothing larger than pea sized hail, the aircraft was undamaged, and we departed after the skies cleared about 30 minutes later.
At the time, I wasn't very happy about how things were handled, but in retrospect, I see that everyone was doing the best they could, based on the information they had. I've talked to the ramp supervisor and dispatcher working our SOC that night and we agree it was the best we could do, all things considered. Sometimes things don't go as intended, but at the end of the day, the passengers were safe, the plane was undamaged, and the flight was completed.
Pppppffffffhhhlllllltttt!!!!!!
I actually have lots of experience with tornados. Ive lived through two and have had several EXTREMELY close calls.
I was home in STL last year when the tornado ate the STL airport. (My apartment was just a couple of miles off of the end of runway 30R) remember, there were pax on board a CRJ parked out on the ramp (My understanding is that they landed but the ramp was closed for lightning) when the field took a direct hit from an ef-4. It was at night and there was almost no warning. It moved the airplane 20 feet. The airplane took straightline winds...not a direct hit from the funnel. Very large airplanes might be able to withstand weaker tornadoes but small airplanes can be just as bad as cars or mobile homes and I would wager to guess that most airplanes, just by the nature of their design, would get tossed by a direct hit from a larger tornado, with the potential of severe damage and passenger injury.
If you have enough warning, deplane the passengers and crew and move them into the terminal building or ops, a hanger, or some other sturdy building. If you have left the terminal and do not have reasonable time to return, shut down, close all window shades and have passengers buckle in and assume the brace/crash position.
Doug, I can see how you're wondering why a dispatcher would have a flight DEPARTING during a tornado-producing storm, but its not unheard of (as in the case of the CRJ at the STL airport last summer) For a plane to make it in ahead of a storm only to get stuck on the ramp unil the storm blows over
Pilotforhire587
Lycra Man
#1. Fire the dispatcher!
#2. Remain on the aircraft. (*)
If there is lightening in the vicinity, ground ops on the ramp are probably shut down so you've got no one to marshall you in anyway.
(*) If you HONESTLY, think a tornado is truly imminent and it's headed your direction, shut it down and head for the ops building.
This is all from my perspective flying the 1900. Now a 402, I have no idea. Much lighter aircraft.
Agreed, Flying in EWR during the summer makes this a pretty common occurrence. Afternoon thunderstorms build to severe strength, and in a hour they are gone. I have had a number of experiences dealing with this and now that I am in the left seat passengers would definitely stay on board the airplane during a storm, even if we are all the way into the gate area. A couple of reasons for this,
1). Like Dough said the ramp is usually closed when lightning is within 10 to 12 miles of a particular field, Even if I get to the gate and then it closes there will be no one to get gate checked bags off the plane or escort the passengers inside, flying the dash we don't mate with a jetway.
2). Just like being in your car during a lightning storm the airplane offers a lot of protection, if lightning hits it you will still be safe inside. Compare this to if you were walking out on a ramp surrounded by huge metal objects, including the terminal building in many cases. Add the potential for hail to that and its too big of a risk.
In the case of a tornado I may handle things differently if we are at the gate and its close enough to see the thing coming. Otherwise I would probably follow the same reasoning, only now you would have debris falling. Last summer I was in PHL waiting to take off when a severe storm came through. For about 10 minutes the winds were sustained over 60knts and frequent gusts near 90knt. The airplanes swayed back and forth a fair amount on its struts but aside from that didn't move. Rain so hard you seriously couldn't see the lights or centerline in front of you. It is definitely safe.
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
I've been through this several times in both the Cargo world and pax world. Your safest bet is usually to stay on the aircraft until the severe weather passes. Crew and passenger safety come first, aircraft second, and I couldn't give about any seciruity issues I create for TSA should I use Emergency Authority and evacuate the aircraft.
BobDduck, does PIT still have the POS lightning detection that that shuts the ramp down for a thunderstorm in California.
BobDduck, does PIT still have the POS lightning detection that that shuts the ramp down for a thunderstorm in California.
jrh
Well-Known Member
I think this much is obvious. The question isn't about what to protect, it's about how to protect. How to decide when keeping pax in an aircraft is or isn't safer than getting them off.
It's easy to say that in theory, but there are always other issues to consider. The extra time it takes to "clean up" a security mess might cause the crew to time out and the flight to be canceled, leave an aircraft out of position, etc. If "cleaning up" the mess isn't done properly, the airline might get a $10,000 fine.
Again, I'm not suggesting that safety should ever fall behind complying with TSA's nonsense. But a good captain isn't going to say, "Screw the TSA, I'll do whatever I want," without considering the consequences in the whole scheme of things. They'll look for a way to keep everyone safe while not creating a logistical nightmare at the same time.
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
You're right it isn't easy. That is why the PIC is paid the big bucks and has the authority he does in the regs. TSA doesn't scare me and I have gone toe to toe with them several times and ended up with a stupidvisor appologizing on several occassions. TSA also cannot interfer with PIC Emergency authority as they don't have the abilty to superscede the CFR's. You just need to be able to back up why you did what you did with a valid reason and that any other reasonable pilot could have reached the same conclusion with the information at the time.
With that being said, Safety comes first and TSA security bullcrap is so far down my list of priorities... I will do what it takes to protect my crew, passengers, and live cargo. If that means they have to dump a terminal so be it. I think any captain that would let TSA security affect his or her decision making about evacuating an aircraft shouldn't be in the left seat
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
I would guess so but I don't know. Airways abandoned PIT long ago. I don't think I've been up there for about 3 years.
That said, you're right... that was one of the most trigger happy lighting detection systems I've ever seen. I think somebody taking a picture using a flash would set it off half the time.
jrh
Well-Known Member
Agreed. But I think we're talking past each other.
My point is that the TSA and their ridiculous rules are still a factor to consider, like it or not. We can't ignore the fact they exist.
In a perfect world we'd have no pressure from any external forces. Time and money would mean nothing. If any element were less than perfect, we could cancel the flight and go home.
Unfortunately that's not reality. We have to decide how to operate to an extremely high standard for safety, yet within the constraints of things like time, money, and the TSA.
A sharp captain will keep his passengers safe at all times. A sharper captain will keep his passengers safe at all times, and do it without causing logistical nightmares in the process. That might not always be possible, but they aren't mutually exclusive goals, either.