Offloading pax during severe weather

[jrh]

Let's say you fly an aircraft too small for a jet bridge (Beech 1900, Saab 340, Cessna 402, etc.).

You load up for a flight with thunderstorms in the vicinity. Shortly after engine start, an unexpected thunderstorm comes over top of the field, which would definitely be unsafe to depart into.

As you sit on the ramp, waiting for the storm to pass, Operations radios that golf ball sized hail has been reported a few miles from the field. They ask if you want to unload the pax and move the plane to a hangar to protect against hail damage.

Considering that the ramp is technically closed due to lightning in the vicinity, coupled with the possibility that hail will be falling soon, you opt to keep the passengers on board rather than risk possible injury while walking them back inside the terminal.

A few moments later, pea sized hail and heavy rain begins falling.

A few moments after that, Operations radios that a tornado warning was just issued for the area.


What do you do?

 

[Maurus]

Tug the plane into the hangar with the pax still inside?

 

[jrh]

Tug the plane into the hangar with the pax still inside?

I suppose that's an option, but very low on the list. All sorts of issues arise, mainly security related, when you take passengers into areas passengers aren't supposed to be. How do you get them back to the terminal, do they need to get re-screened, how do you handle their gate checked bags, etc.

 

[deadstick]

Safety of the pax is your #1 priority. As for security issues, leave it to those TSA "pro's." i imagine there will be less paperwork for that than if a twister takes your plane-full of pax and pushes it into the terminal.

 

[jrh]

Safety of the pax is your #1 priority. As for security issues, leave it to those TSA "pro's." i imagine there will be less paperwork for that than if a twister takes your plane-full of pax and pushes it into the terminal.

Obviously safety is #1, but that doesn't always lead to an easy answer.

To add a few more details to the scenario: You're parked at the terminal while all of this is going down, and it's about an eight minute taxi to the hangar.

Do you offload the pax into lightning and pea sized hail, with the possibility of larger hail on the way, in order to get them inside immediately? Taxi with them for eight minutes to a hangar, hoping a tornado won't hit during those 8 minutes, and deal with the security mess after the fact? Just sit tight on the ramp and don't do anything, hoping the storm will clear soon? Or choose another option which I haven't mentioned?

 

[bike21]

Big question is, why did you load up in the first place?

 

[jrh]

Big question is, why did you load up in the first place?

Because the weather wasn't severe at the time you gave the go ahead to start the boarding process. A lot can change in ten minutes when dealing with this kind of weather.

 

[BobDDuck]

I wouldn't put the pax back out on the ramp. Legally it is shut down and you'd need a really good reason to bail people out. Hail and heavy rain ain't going to do it. There may be damage to the plane, but nobody is going to get hurt inside. The only threat that you have to seriously worry about is wind (via gust or tornado). Minus a tornado actually running you down on the ground, I'd think as long as you can keep the nose of the plane pointed into the wind you'd be ok.

A few years ago I was taxing out at Dulles when the ground controller told us they were evacuating the tower due to a tornado spotted just south of the field. We were pretty much the only plane out there and after talking to ops (who had pulled all of their rampers inside) decided to just reposition farther north up the airfield and have good options to taxi east or west and stay out of the way of a tornado coming towards us. The benefit we had was that it was daylight and relatively good visibility. My biggest fear as far as unloading passengers was that we'd get some off into the terminal and then it would get hit and there would be flying glass everywhere. Minus a direct hit, I figured we'd be safest in the plane. Of course, that was in an RJ, not a 402, and it was before I saw that video footage of tractor trailers getting tossed around in Dallas.

 

[bike21]

Because the weather wasn't severe at the time you gave the go ahead to start the boarding process. A lot can change in ten minutes when dealing with this kind of weather.

Sorry, don't quite buy it - maybe I'm more conservative than most, but it's fairly obvious when the crap is rolling in and it's about to get nasty. I've held off boarding numerous times and even once told everyone to get off (nicely of course) after the gate agent had boarded when I had told her previously not to. That one is a long story, but good one.

I'd be even more cautious in the example you give without using a jet bridge (we don't always have them either). Of course, if we were having this discussion in Panama flying the the Twin Otter it would be a different story. Those guys just had us take shelter next to some outbuilding (not even inside since it was locked) during a storm

 

[jrh]

I wouldn't put the pax back out on the ramp. Legally it is shut down...

Legally shut down by what authority?

Not saying you're wrong, just an honest question. I've spoken with ramp supervisors at my operation, and skimmed through our GOM, and can't find any clear guidance on what criteria shuts down a ramp.

 

[Roger Roger]

I think at that point just from a liability standpoint you're probably stuck keeping the pax on board. In today's society if you had a pax slip on hailstones and roll their ankle or tweak their back, or (however unlikely) get struck by lightning, I don't see the situation ending without an expensive lawsuit. I would absolutely find some way to keep tuned in to the weather situation though so if the fit really hits the shan (say, tornado is spotted) you know about it. If that requires firing up an engine so you can be on the radio with ground without killing the battery (since they presumably will be kept up to date on weather advisories, and will have a better view if, say, a +FC does pop out), then so be it. I also like the idea of taking pax to the hangar and if you think you can swing it without someone coming out of it handcuffed by the smurfs for violating some inane security rule or another that is what I would prefer over just sitting on the ramp hoping a twister doesn't roll over us.

 

[jrh]

Sorry, don't quite buy it

That's ok, you don't have to.

If you're implying that a pilot should never find themselves in a similar spot, I would disagree. Thunderstorms are an especially unpredictable event. I've grown up with them and flown around them for years. I think even the best pilots can find themselves in places they'd rather not be, thanks to t-storms.

Similar to the "going below minimums" thread started a little while ago, while the events leading up to the event might be debateable in their own way, I'm more interested in hearing how pilots would deal with this situation once it gets rolling.

 

[BeRich]

If you're worried about the security/other issues of having the pax roaming around the hanger, what about taking it into the hangar but keeping everyone on the plane, and then taxi back to the terminal once it's safe to go outside again?

 

[bike21]

That's ok, you don't have to.

If you're implying that a pilot should never find themselves in a similar spot, I would disagree. Thunderstorms are an especially unpredictable event. I've grown up with them and flown around them for years. I think even the best pilots can find themselves in places they'd rather not be, thanks to t-storms.

Similar to the "going below minimums" thread started a little while ago, while the events leading up to the event might be debateable in their own way, I'm more interested in hearing how pilots would deal with this situation once it gets rolling.

Not implying that this situation will never occur and don't want to discount how quickly weather changes, just looking at it from a more proactive approach I guess. To answer your question directly, if you hadn't decided to move everyone just yet, I'd also be inclined to stay put. But best judgement being so, it all depends

 

[BobDDuck]

Legally shut down by what authority?

Most airport ramps have a lightning detection system. They link to traffic lights or something similar. A lightning strike within X miles will trigger a yellow light (which for us means no headset communications to push tug drivers) and at Y miles they shut down the ramp. Nobody is allowed outside at that point. Normally there is a 15 minute clock that gets started and (annoyingly reset) every time there is another strike within Y miles.

 

[jrh]

Most airport ramps have a lightning detection system. They link to traffic lights or something similar. A lightning strike within X miles will trigger a yellow light (which for us means no headset communications to push tug drivers) and at Y miles they shut down the ramp. Nobody is allowed outside at that point. Normally there is a 15 minute clock that gets started and (annoyingly reset) every time there is another strike within Y miles.

Yes, I'm familiar with the system. We have one in STL.

But that was my question all along...who controls this system, who does it apply to, and what are the consequences for ignoring it?

If I break a security rule, the TSA will get involved and fine my airline.

If I break a regulation while flying, the FAA will get involved and suspend my pilot certificate, fine my airline, etc.

If I decide to walk across the ramp when the ramp is "closed," who will I get in trouble with? Our GOM says nothing about ramp closures, and none of the ramp agents or supervisors I've talked to can point to a reference for what they can and can't do. They just say, "If the blue strobes are flashing, we aren't supposed to go out." But that's the extent of what they're able to explain.

I'm all for following the rules, but I can't figure out what the rule is in this case. That's why I wanted a deeper explanation when you said "legally" the ramp is closed.

 

[MikeD]

But that was my question all along...who controls this system, who does it apply to, and what are the consequences for ignoring it?

I'm all for following the rules, but I can't figure out what the rule is in this case. That's why I wanted a deeper explanation when you said "legally" the ramp is closed.

Am wondering if it's an airport authority (airport management) rule along the lines of "we're showing our ramp as closed when X lights are on. If you are out there on the ramp, you are out there purely at your own risk and own liability."

 

[deadstick]

Obviously safety is #1, but that doesn't always lead to an easy answer.

To add a few more details to the scenario: You're parked at the terminal while all of this is going down, and it's about an eight minute taxi to the hangar.

Do you offload the pax into lightning and pea sized hail, with the possibility of larger hail on the way, in order to get them inside immediately? Taxi with them for eight minutes to a hangar, hoping a tornado won't hit during those 8 minutes, and deal with the security mess after the fact? Just sit tight on the ramp and don't do anything, hoping the storm will clear soon? Or choose another option which I haven't mentioned?

I was just trrying to make the point that if the situation is bad enough that you, the PIC, feel you need to get your pax off the plane and under cover, then the security concerns should not be a factor.

At first, I as thinking to park in the "gate" as normal, as egress only if a FC is spotted. However, if the tower was evacuated, who'd tell you? Also, I've seen microbursts toss aircraft around, too. The 402 is, what, about 7000 lb gross? That's not much in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Tommay85]

This happened once when I was still flight instructing. One line of storms collided with another and pushed the entire system north and in a hurry. I saw it coming well in advance enough to do something. Hangars were mostly empty as operations were still continuing as normal at the time, so we taxied INTO the hangar, spun it around and maintenance pushed us back the rest of the way into a corner to get more planes in.

Would that be an option? Get someone to get the door open and drive in? Hangars seem to fall down in bad storms though. But you would at least have shelter to unload the passengers to get them somewhere more secure.

 

[Matt13C]

is there a bus that can come pick them up, to limit their exposure and take them to the terminal, and then you taxi to the hangar?