Officially a career changer, seeking advice on time building

Beaker

Beaker

Well-Known Member
I have concluded my engineering work, obtained a first-class medical, and am officially a bright-eyed and bushy-tailed career changer. This is something that I have always wanted to do, and I even though I am getting a late start, I see it as a better path to cash, prizes, and time off than even if I had maximal success as a technically-minded aerospace engineer. So I am excited to get started. I am soon to be 40 and have a private pilot certificate with 100 hours. The name of the game is to get the rest of the ratings and 1400 more hours in an expeditious manner. The two options I am considering:

1. A fast-paced, high-volume Part 141 school (has the cadet programs and all that) at an airport that is 25-40 minute drive from my house, depending on traffic. Instruct at said school to build time. 20-22 month time-frame until I am airline-ready.

2. Buy my own airplane and hangar it at an airport that is 15 minutes from my house (traffic never an issue, hangar availability TBD). Obtain training from an independent CFI. Fly this plane obsessively to build time while doing some interesting cross-countries. Maybe mix in some part time CFI work. Potentially airline ready much faster (12-15 months). Side note, flight schools at this more convenient airport are sparse and do not currently have availability.

I worked a decent paying job while living frugally for the past 15 years, so have the financial arrows in my quiver to go after either of these possibilities. But because of that ingrained frugality, it is taking me a minute to wrap my head around buying a plane. But at my age, getting ahead by a year seems like it could be worth the extra cost. What say the peanut gallery here?
 
39, career changer here. I did everything up to my commercial in 2007 at ATP; CFI initial in 2022 at a local flight school. If I could do it all over again, I would have purchased an airplane and completed my training in it. Then instructed at a local flight school.
 
Seniority and career math says do it was fast as you can. The legacy airlines are hiring hundreds, nay thousands, of 20-something’s that will always be senior to you. The ‘cash prizes’ come with the price of holidays, weekends, and QOL hits based on seniority. And trust me, there always is a point where the QOL considerations outweighs the cash.
 
I get the folks saying "go as fast as possible" - and I suppose that's true if your only goal is to get to 121 as fast as possible, but if you have a couple years, and you want to have more control over your own life, and you have the money to do so, I'd recommend option 2 strictly because you can start making money sooner.

If you learn to fly in your own airplane with a decent local CFI, you will enter the airlines in roughly the same amount of time with potentially far more practical knowledge and a side hustle that can be fairly lucrative depending on where you're at in the country. I don't know what the prevailing wisdom is these days, but I have quite a few acquaintances who essentially learned to fly for free by buying an airplane, training in it through C-ASEL, then sold it and profited enough to basically break even on the cost.

One friend of mine actually created a flight school, now he's at AS, and his flight school is making him money on the side. Granted, he was in his late 20s early 30s when he started this experiment and now he's in his late 30s, but having started my aviation career in 2007, I'm skeptical of people who say, "get to the airlines as soon as possible" because many of the people who got into the industry around the same time I did ended up furloughed, etc. You cannot predict when the merry-go-round is going to stop and at least for me, I would prefer to have the assets and experience necessary to be either find a job in another segment of the industry or sell my assets to pay my mortgage etc.

Many people here went through multiple furloughs when the economy evaporated in 2008. A lot of things have to go right for you to stay in the career too. You're almost 40 right? If you get cancer in 10 years, or have a heart attack at 45 - not likely, no, but it can happen. Do you want to go back to engineering as a fall back or do you want to have an asset that makes you money?

Finally, what do you want to get out of the career? If you like GA and like flying for fun (clearly this is the case you've been doing it long enough) and haven't given up on it, then do you think 121 land is what you want to do? To quote @derg, "these are the good ole days." How do you want to spend them? Do you have a family and a partner or kids? What do they think about this whole thing?

I don't know, I guess, my default take whenever everyone is saying "you should do this, this is how you get ahead" is to consider that avenue of opportunity more or less saturated and look how I can do well in endeavors that I find equally interesting but are orthogonal to the prevailing wisdom. That said, I am maybe broken, so, you know, do what you want.
 
Thank you for the responses. To answer some questions that were I asked:

1. I have a family. Spouse understands the value in moving things along quickly.
2. End goal is 121. GA airplanes and gliders could remain a hobby after getting there.
3. I am keeping my engineering connections on life support in the event professional flying does not work out (lost medical, etc.) or if I want to do some consulting as a side hustle down the road.
4. I was seeing the buying-my-own airplane approach as potentially faster than the pilot mill because I could afford to operate it more hours per month than I would likely instruct at any school. Not indefinitely, of course, but long enough to get the job done and then sell it. Hopefully see some interesting things along the way, too. Of course, that depends on not getting a lemon, and I have not yet been baptized into the "joys" of ownership that may render that frequency of flying impractical.
 
I guess, "how much control do you want over your life?" is really the question if it were me.
Beaker said:
Thank you for the responses. To answer some questions that were I asked:

1. I have a family. Spouse understands the value in moving things along quickly.
2. End goal is 121. GA airplanes and gliders could remain a hobby after getting there.
3. I am keeping my engineering connections on life support in the event professional flying does not work out (lost medical, etc.) or if I want to do some consulting as a side hustle down the road.
4. I was seeing the buying-my-own airplane approach as potentially faster than the pilot mill because I could afford to operate it more hours per month than I would likely instruct at any school. Not indefinitely, of course, but long enough to get the job done and then sell it. Hopefully see some interesting things along the way, too. Of course, that depends on not getting a lemon, and I have not yet been baptized into the "joys" of ownership that may render that frequency of flying impractical.
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1. First, good.
2. Okie doke. That may be the end goal, but you haven't done it. If you get there and love it, awesome, but I would definitely bear in mind that there is a chance you get there and dislike it (low probability anecdotally) or don't get there because of forces outside your control (medical, economy, terrorist attack, whatever). Having a diverse set of skills in the airplane is valuable, and be careful who you pick for a puppy-mill-style flight academy thing if you decide to go that way. Honestly, the ATPs guys have always been pretty good in my experience, but my experience is a little stale.
3. This is very smart
4. I don't know that it'll be faster - realistically, depending on many uncontrollable factors, they'll probably take about the same amount of time by the time the dust settles. You really cannot take any shortcuts, and there's no optimization you can do. This stuff just takes time. You'll probably have WAY more fun with option 2 (fun is good to keep you motivated when it gets hard), and I reckon option 2 will provide you with better diversity and money-making opportunities in the long run, but I reckon they'll both be about the same price in both time and money or by whatever metric you've decided to use to weight the utility of both.

I don't know what part of the country you live in, but weather is a factor in this as well. Option 2 gives you a lot more flexibility, but cares a little more risk. You might have an instructor who is comfortable flying IFR and SVFR, whereas your flight academy might prohibit it, etc. Lot's of variables here.

Just generally, a wise one told me, "no matter what, you must remember, whenever you choose one thing, you're choosing not to do another thing. Opportunity cost is real." For me, I try to weight the opportunity cost of my time and enjoyment of life during whatever thing greater than the strictly money, but you certainly still have to be able to eat, so there's a balance that must be struck.

I'm still for option 2 and trying to be your own boss and controlling your own life as much as possible. Life is short, and sacrificing your time to the aviation gods is..., well fickle. Nobody can predict the future, but who knows, in 5 years time, you could have a fleet of airplanes, be running a flight school on the side while you work at a major, with a schedule that has you home pretty regularly on track 2. Whereas on track 1 you might be on an overnight in dong-scratch Indiana while you zoom with your attorney about your divorce and custody battle. Conversely, you could be a wide-body captain on track 1 with weekends off strategically bidding to go on adventures around the world with your family, whereas on track 2 you could be dead.

I don't know, I'd say, the best thing you can do is weight the experiences you'll get and the adventures you'll have higher than speed and convenience if you can, and beyond a certain point, the money should be weighted less as well. Also, if you like being around your family, I'd be cautious about the strategy you employ early on. Aviation is hard on families and marriages. Choose a strategy that keeps your partner in the loop and comfortable.
 
You might mix option 1 and option 2. Buy the plane, get your ratings, then free lance CFI in your plane. If you live in a metropolitan area you'd have a shot at developing a student/renter base that would keep you as busy as a flight school. Start your own flying club. Offer to teach a ground school at the local junior college as a way to attract students. I did all these things back in the 80's when I couldn't find a CFI job. It worked for me. There is a guy on here who rarely posts but started out with one airplane as a CFI and now has a fleet of 172's and instructors as KSNA.
 
Beaker said:
2. Buy my own airplane and hangar it at an airport that is 15 minutes from my house (traffic never an issue, hangar availability TBD). Obtain training from an independent CFI. Fly this plane obsessively to build time while doing some interesting cross-countries. Maybe mix in some part time CFI work. Potentially airline ready much faster (12-15 months). Side note, flight schools at this more convenient airport are sparse and do not currently have availability.
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Doing the same thing, about the same age, done with engineering for a while. Already a CFI with 1,000 hours though. I vote option 2 if you can afford it and the risks that come with it. If you can find a partner in the plane, #2 is a lot cheaper.

The downsides to #2, you probably want an airplane you can use for Comm/CFI (TAA or Complex), which is expensive. And putting 1,400 hours on anything is also expensive, may well involve an engine overhaul for example. And the airplane ownership stuff all takes time, which is time you aren't flying.

Owning an airplane doesn't limit you to only flying that airplane (I own one with a few partners). You want to have some other options, the plane will be down for maintenance. For the instruction side of things, you have the option to fly the plane elsewhere, so it isn't a huge deal if you don't have a local CFI-I. A couple of 2 or 3 day trips to one won't be the end of the world, and you still another 150 hours before you are getting the Comm/CFI anyway.

Being an airplane owner and instructor, you'll end up meeting all the other airplane owners pretty quickly (which is probably a lot harder to do at a pilot mill type of school). This is really useful, as you can get people looking for flight reviews/IPCs/Instrument ratings pretty easily. You are also way more likely to get invited to go flying with other owners.

Good luck, hope this helps!
 
Beaker said:
I have concluded my engineering work, obtained a first-class medical, and am officially a bright-eyed and bushy-tailed career changer. This is something that I have always wanted to do, and I even though I am getting a late start, I see it as a better path to cash, prizes, and time off than even if I had maximal success as a technically-minded aerospace engineer. So I am excited to get started. I am soon to be 40 and have a private pilot certificate with 100 hours. The name of the game is to get the rest of the ratings and 1400 more hours in an expeditious manner. The two options I am considering:

1. A fast-paced, high-volume Part 141 school (has the cadet programs and all that) at an airport that is 25-40 minute drive from my house, depending on traffic. Instruct at said school to build time. 20-22 month time-frame until I am airline-ready.

2. Buy my own airplane and hangar it at an airport that is 15 minutes from my house (traffic never an issue, hangar availability TBD). Obtain training from an independent CFI. Fly this plane obsessively to build time while doing some interesting cross-countries. Maybe mix in some part time CFI work. Potentially airline ready much faster (12-15 months). Side note, flight schools at this more convenient airport are sparse and do not currently have availability.

I worked a decent paying job while living frugally for the past 15 years, so have the financial arrows in my quiver to go after either of these possibilities. But because of that ingrained frugality, it is taking me a minute to wrap my head around buying a plane. But at my age, getting ahead by a year seems like it could be worth the extra cost. What say the peanut gallery here?
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49 years old, just started at a Majorish-LCC.

If you are *absolutely sure* that 121 is the goal and what you want, then there is a reason that the cliche "Seniority Is Everything" gets repeated a lot. Because it is. For that reason I would say quitting the full time job and instructing and/or flying as much as possible is the best path; some place like ATP, for example. I know people like to bag on ATP a lot, but I've personally flown with multiple pilots who went through their program (some of them members of this very site) and all of them were solid, conscientious, safe pilots. It's very, very expensive, but you get out of it what you put into it, and if you have the financial resources, it's hard to argue the results. One of their former senior instructors is a good friend of mine, who traveled all over the northeast teaching their own instructors, and I can put you in touch with him if you want a perspective on that.

As for the options you enumerated....

Option 1 can work out well, especially if you're still working. This is basically what I did - but I spent 3-4 years getting to that point, and then 4 years instructing part time. I would have cut my time in half by doing it full time, and that 4 years saved would have gotten me more ahead of the current hiring wave than now. But I couldn't afford to do that so part time it was. The other advantage is that I had zero training debt. That is *huge* when you are taking a pay cut from a solid engineering gig with (in my case) significant commissions and bonuses down to airline pay for the first few years.

I *also* did Option 2. I bought a small airplane, I spent a lot of time and money upgrading it, I flew it for 3 years, and I just closed the sale on it yesterday. This part I didn't exactly do correctly for two reasons: first, I didn't fly it nearly as much as I thought I would - I'd figured on 250-300 hours a year, and it was more like 110-115. Part of that was due to the abnormally long downtime during a major upgrade, but even without that, I'm not sure I would have flown as much. In terms of time-building, the math tends to work out to this: if you're going to fly <250-300 hours a year, it's actually cheaper to rent. I wanted a speedy XC machine, which I had. But when you're time building, 85 knots is fast enough. Boring, but fast enough.

Something that doesn't get mentioned enough is flying clubs - in your case I would strongly recommend you look into a club that would allow you fairly high utilization. You didn't say where you are geographically; if you share that, we might be able to make some recommendations.

But I want to go back to the first paragraph. Seniority is everything. If I had started pursuing my ratings when I first joined this website, there's a pretty good chance I'd be sitting, if not CA, then very senior FO at any number of places making the kind of money that I could feel very secure about going into retirement. That was 2006-ish, I think. And even when I decided...almost 10 years ago....to pursue this thing for real, I made other decisions about running "real life" in parallel to this one. I had a lot of great experiences with people who are important to me, but I traded a lot of seniority over time for those experiences. 97% of the time, I don't regret that slow-roll into the career at all. 3% of the time, I wish I had just dove in immediately and knocked it all out faster. 121 is a lifestyle game. The aviation part of 121 is formulaic and kind of boring. Which is as it should be.

The calculus of your decisions will follow a similar path. When we're older, the ties that bind are stronger, the roots are deeper, and the things we do have some pretty broad secondary and tertiary effects on the ones around us. You can ease in, like I did, or you can rip the bandaid off and go full bore. Neither path is better or worse in and of itself - it's only better or worse in the context of your goals and needs in life. I do think semi-full-time instruction and a flying club are, perhaps, the best possible balance, but that's a decade of anecdotal experience talking.
 
Thank you for the additional responses. I know it takes time to reflect and write up a post and I appreciate it. Since I first posted, I found a flight school with good availability and a decent sized fleet of identical aircraft and in-house maintenance. Because of this, there is always an airplane to fly and usually a spare to swap into if a problem comes up. The airport is a bit of a drive, but it's headed out of the metro area so traffic is not a concern. It is towered but not too busy; you can be flying in the practice area 10 minutes after starting the engine. There are also a variety of approach types available locally, and a VOR in the vicinity. They offer both Part 61 and 141 training, and you arrange your own schedule with the instructor. So far it has been a good fit for me. I was able to get current and signed off for a BFR, which is an accomplishment after not touching airplane controls for more than a decade (the high-volume Part 141 school I was considering does not offer rusty pilot / BFR services). I am continuing here at least through instrument, and possibly rest of the training. I like the one-on-one instruction, and that I can study on my own rather than in ground classes.

As I awkwardly reenter the cockpit, I am reminded of the great Steve Martin's advice making it in show business -- be undeniably good. For now I am focused on getting better each time I fly and putting the distraction of "getting there ASAP" out of my mind, temporarily. Which is not to say that I am dragging my feet. I am full-time committed to advancing my training, but at a pace that feels satisfying and healthy. After all, turning something I have always wanted to do into just another grinding rat race would not exactly be life progress.

I am letting the idea of buying my own airplane continue to hum in the back of my mind while I work on my initial advancements. It is the sort of idea that puts a stupid grin on my face. Still waiting to find out hangar availability at my local airport (KTKI in the Dallas area). Flying clubs were mentioned, which are definitely a great idea. There is a nice one at KTKI -- I am on the waiting list with only about 4 more years to go :). I have not yet inquired about the ones at airports that are farther away. In general, the drastically reduced availability of airplanes, at least in this area, has been the greatest culture shock to me compared to when I was flying 15 years ago.
 
Beaker said:
Thank you for the additional responses. I know it takes time to reflect and write up a post and I appreciate it. Since I first posted, I found a flight school with good availability and a decent sized fleet of identical aircraft and in-house maintenance. Because of this, there is always an airplane to fly and usually a spare to swap into if a problem comes up. The airport is a bit of a drive, but it's headed out of the metro area so traffic is not a concern. It is towered but not too busy; you can be flying in the practice area 10 minutes after starting the engine. There are also a variety of approach types available locally, and a VOR in the vicinity. They offer both Part 61 and 141 training, and you arrange your own schedule with the instructor. So far it has been a good fit for me. I was able to get current and signed off for a BFR, which is an accomplishment after not touching airplane controls for more than a decade (the high-volume Part 141 school I was considering does not offer rusty pilot / BFR services). I am continuing here at least through instrument, and possibly rest of the training. I like the one-on-one instruction, and that I can study on my own rather than in ground classes.

As I awkwardly reenter the cockpit, I am reminded of the great Steve Martin's advice making it in show business -- be undeniably good. For now I am focused on getting better each time I fly and putting the distraction of "getting there ASAP" out of my mind, temporarily. Which is not to say that I am dragging my feet. I am full-time committed to advancing my training, but at a pace that feels satisfying and healthy. After all, turning something I have always wanted to do into just another grinding rat race would not exactly be life progress.

I am letting the idea of buying my own airplane continue to hum in the back of my mind while I work on my initial advancements. It is the sort of idea that puts a stupid grin on my face. Still waiting to find out hangar availability at my local airport (KTKI in the Dallas area). Flying clubs were mentioned, which are definitely a great idea. There is a nice one at KTKI -- I am on the waiting list with only about 4 more years to go :). I have not yet inquired about the ones at airports that are farther away. In general, the drastically reduced availability of airplanes, at least in this area, has been the greatest culture shock to me compared to when I was flying 15 years ago.
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I think you're thinking about the right things. Something to consider....Steve Martin's right - being undeniably good is a good thing to shoot for - but also realize that pilots are their own worst enemy and we frequently - as a breed - let perfect become the enemy of good. This was a very, very hard lesson for me to learn.

It's all well and good to strive for perfection, but there is a difference between trying to get better, and taking that drive and turning it into a nasty taskmaster that sucks the fun out of what you're doing. And while aviation is certainly unforgiving of inattention and casual attitudes, there *is* - at least in the professional levels - some built-in safety margin that allow you to survive your mistakes while learning.

Do *not* fall into the trap of telling yourself stories about how bad you suck when you've had a bad day learning. You will most certainly have them. Later on, so will your students. This is not a story to be believed - it's an ego trying to spare itself from pain.

Those bad days are things to be grateful for because that is, generally speaking, where the most learning happens. You'll go through it on your IR, your CSEL, your CMEL and definitely on CFI and CFII. And you'll *see* it in your students when you're teaching. So - I'll offer you this to think about right now: when you're having a tough day, ask yourself what you need from your instructor to help you get through it.

Then remember that your students will have needs, too. How will you help them? This is a mindset you want to get into, I would suggest, when you start doing Commercial, because if you go right into CFI afterward, while it's still fresh, you'll already be in the right headspace for it.

I'm gonna send you a PM about some of the other stuff you wrote specific to where you are....I learned to fly at TKI. :)

Please keep us posted. Lots of people here eager to help you.
 
Checking-in with a progress report: I have obtained my instrument rating and commercial certificate. I am also happy with the decisions I made on how to go about it. Through exploring my options and some good luck, I landed at a solid flight school operation with a competent and fun instructor. I have been able to tailor my schedule to make consistent progress while still being present to do all the dad stuff. I know that I will not be able to do this when I start a flying job, so I am glad that I can do it now. My wife has been incredibly supportive for those times when I need to be gone for whole days or late at night (starting a long flight 1 hour after sunset around the summer solstice...).

I did my commercial training under part 61 and am at just over 250 hours TT. I have more actual flight time and have gone on more interesting cross-country trips compared to if I had gone to the high-volume part 141 school. Getting the XC time was fun and pretty much a choose-your-own-adventure. I have also liked being able to adjust the training agenda to satisfy my own curiosities. I think the chief advantage that I saw in the high-volume part 141 school, being able to work there as an instructor, has largely evaporated for the moment since regionals are not hiring the existing instructors, leaving no room for the new guys.

To any prospective career changers reading this, it is hard to bank on a particular timeline for getting through training (and finding a job). The weather in my area has probably added about two months to my schedule so far. Both January and May had a large number of cancellations due to widespread low IFR with freezing temps in the first case and persistent thunderstorm activity in the latter. Getting a checkride date can be another roadblock, but I have been fortunate so far due to my instructor cultivating a positive relationship with a newer DPE. I think it will be an issue for CFI/CFII since fewer DPEs can do those. Get started on things as soon as you can.

The good days flying have greatly outnumbered the bad, where those bad days are simple frustration with not performing as well as I want to. But on those days I think back to what my capabilities were a few months ago, and I realize how far I have come. Inevitably whatever wasn't clicking, eventually clicks, and I enjoy the reward of advancing my craft one more notch. There are many vistas on the way to the mountaintop. The key is to just keep climbing.

I love the community that you find at the airport. Aviation breaks down barriers. There are no strangers at the FBO, just people you haven't talked to yet.

Now I am entering the next phase of training, which is gaining exposure to some older airplanes (discovering how much I have been leaning on the glass cockpit) and then earning my CFI and CFII. I was able to join a flying club that is much closer to my house than the school I have been operating out of. I am hoping that this is a good fit for the CFI/CFII and also a great opportunity to build time taking fun trips in affordable airplanes.

Alright, good talk. I'll see you out there.
 
Instrument rating, time building and a commercial ticket in just over 6 months is pretty incredible. Congrats! What airport are you flying out of?

Glad the transition is working well for you and your family. Don't be a stranger. Keep us posted on your progress and let us know if you need any help.
 
If you were any older than you are now, I'd say reconsider. I'd still probably say that, but if you are really interested, I'm sure you can get a seniority number eventually. There are a lot of things going on right now, but best case, you get to a major by the mid-late 40's timeframe. You have to consider what that means to you. Sort of my situation, but way older than I was (39). Those thousands of 20-somethings senior to you are gonna take a little bit of the edge off to it, to be blunt.
 
N826AW said:
What airport are you flying out of?
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I'm in the Dallas area. The club I just joined is at TKI.

///AMG said:
If you were any older than you are now, I'd say reconsider. I'd still probably say that, but if you are really interested, I'm sure you can get a seniority number eventually. There are a lot of things going on right now, but best case, you get to a major by the mid-late 40's timeframe. You have to consider what that means to you. Sort of my situation, but way older than I was (39). Those thousands of 20-somethings senior to you are gonna take a little bit of the edge off to it, to be blunt.
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I appreciate the bluntness. You're not wrong. It would certainly have been better to get started a few years ago, or even better, right after school (middle of the financial crisis). There were several good reasons not to do it then, just as we can point to reasons not to do it now. I have consumed internet perspectives on the aviation career for the better part of two decades. I have always been struck by the diversity of factual circumstances as well as the personal reactions to those circumstances: It is the best job. It is the worst job. I have great QOL. I have no QOL. So I am not convinced that it is going to be awesome -- just that it is past time I step into the casino and find out for myself. Importantly, I am only betting with chips that I can afford to lose.
 
///AMG said:
If you were any older than you are now, I'd say reconsider. I'd still probably say that, but if you are really interested, I'm sure you can get a seniority number eventually. There are a lot of things going on right now, but best case, you get to a major by the mid-late 40's timeframe. You have to consider what that means to you. Sort of my situation, but way older than I was (39). Those thousands of 20-somethings senior to you are gonna take a little bit of the edge off to it, to be blunt.
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I think about this a lot as a 38 year old wrapping up the CFI with ~500TT.
The post Covid run no doubt changed the seniority landscape for the older dudes getting in late.
@Beaker love the casino analogy. Hope it’s all winner winner chicken dinner for you!
 
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