Off-topic performance discussion (from ATR 72 Crash thread)

Ian_J

Hubschrauber Flieger
Staff member
500 hour pilot question. Don't taze me. But aren't you supposed to take off before or after a heavy jet t/o point, to avoid that? I know that you said that you were heavy, but could you have ran the numbers to takeoff at a higher thrust output, to take off before their rotation and fly above the 767's wake?
What @killbilly said but to add that on the 73 at least there’d be no need to rerun numbers. Deleting the assumed temp in the FMC makes it a max thrust takeoff and our performance data always comes with those numbers. That said, we’d have no idea where on the runway we’d unstick except for a vague idea based on weight.
 
500 hour pilot question. Don't taze me. But aren't you supposed to take off before or after a heavy jet t/o point, to avoid that? I know that you said that you were heavy, but could you have ran the numbers to takeoff at a higher thrust output, to take off before their rotation and fly above the 767's wake?
And very real possibility that the 737 or A321 needs more runway than a lightly loaded 767 so not much you can do. I tend to drag my feet when getting into position behind a heavy and when taking off just for the couple of extra seconds, but in reality there isnt a whole lot you can do in one airliner behind another.
 
And very real possibility that the 737 or A321 needs more runway than a lightly loaded 767 so not much you can do. I tend to drag my feet when getting into position behind a heavy and when taking off just for the couple of extra seconds, but in reality there isnt a whole lot you can do in one airliner behind another.
Very real possibility that the 737 or A321 needs more runway than a heavy loaded 767 as well.
 
And very real possibility that the 737 or A321 needs more runway than a lightly loaded 767 so not much you can do. I tend to drag my feet when getting into position behind a heavy and when taking off just for the couple of extra seconds, but in reality there isnt a whole lot you can do in one airliner behind another.
Why is that?
 
Why is that?
I don’t know about other types and other operations, but on the Guppy with Johnny Cash on the tail our takeoff performance (flap setting, derate, flex temp) is always optimized to use the lowest possible N1 that meets runway and engine out criteria. The upshot is that on any takeoff with less than about 10,000’ of runway you’re staring down the TDZ markings on the other end as you ever so slowly rotate because don’t bonk the tail on this overstretched abomination….
 
I don’t know about other types and other operations, but on the Guppy with Johnny Cash on the tail our takeoff performance (flap setting, derate, flex temp) is always optimized to use the lowest possible N1 that meets runway and engine out criteria. The upshot is that on any takeoff with less than about 10,000’ of runway you’re staring down the TDZ markings on the other end as you ever so slowly rotate because don’t bonk the tail on this overstretched abomination….

That's pretty amazing.

We occasionally get requests from Mx for full-thrust takeoffs - usually after some procedure they ran. On those days, even if you're a bit on the heavy side, once the FADEC says, "Okay, yeah, I'll give you the beans" the amount of thrust the GTFs will give you is awe-inspiring. Those giant-ass fans move a TON of air and get you climbing with catlike quickness. It makes me appreciate how much fun the A220 can be.

If you're light, it's even more awesome. To the tune of, "holy CRAP make sure we level off in time!"

Makes me think the A220 could be a baby 757 if they'd let it. It's got such a great wing.
 
That's pretty amazing.

We occasionally get requests from Mx for full-thrust takeoffs - usually after some procedure they ran.

Full thrust takeoffs are used for any wet or worse runway, no reduced takeoffs allowed for us on those. So they can be experienced fairly often.

Somewhat fun to do.
 
That's pretty amazing.

We occasionally get requests from Mx for full-thrust takeoffs - usually after some procedure they ran. On those days, even if you're a bit on the heavy side, once the FADEC says, "Okay, yeah, I'll give you the beans" the amount of thrust the GTFs will give you is awe-inspiring. Those giant-ass fans move a TON of air and get you climbing with catlike quickness. It makes me appreciate how much fun the A220 can be.

If you're light, it's even more awesome. To the tune of, "holy CRAP make sure we level off in time!"

Makes me think the A220 could be a baby 757 if they'd let it. It's got such a great wing.
I saw y’all or DAL I forget which yeeting out of BOS yesterday and rotating around the last TDZ mark on the correct end of the runway.
 
I took an empty 777 from Liege to Milan. We were at 2000' by the end of the runway.
I rode the JS from MCO-ATL on a DL 777LR when they were doing familiarisation flights for the LCP’s.

They requested an unrestricted climb prior to push, and we did a full TO takeoff. Want to talk about impressive, that sucker jumped off the runway and like a homesick angel. We were prob off the runway in 4,000ft.

Easily the most impressive plane I’ve seen with paying pax onboard.
 
I rode the JS from MCO-ATL on a DL 777LR when they were doing familiarisation flights for the LCP’s.

They requested an unrestricted climb prior to push, and we did a full TO takeoff. Want to talk about impressive, that sucker jumped off the runway and like a homesick angel. We were prob off the runway in 4,000ft.

Easily the most impressive plane I’ve seen with paying pax onboard.
The thing is a beast! I love climbing out of LA above 10k and they request 250 knots. The freighter is a 200 with a 300 wing. It's fun!
 
I got to fly ORD-STL as a passenger one night on a nearly empty 757. Damn thing took off like a Saturn V, I've never felt anything like it.

Many, many moons ago I flew out of DFW early one morning during the AA push. We were just repositioning an empty B767 back to SDF. Decided it was a good day for a max blast off of 18R. I think I grayed out somewhere during the takeoff roll from being pushed back in my seat. Initial climbout the non stop talking controller suddently just went quiet. I just remember seeing the VSI pegged, the pitch attitude was impressive and we were still accelerating. After a hot minute the controller said, “Ah, UPS….you guys ok?” I said “Yea, be a nice aircraft if it just had a little climb performance..”. He thanked us for the air show. I remember leveling at 17’000ft on a right midfield downwind as they switched us over to Center.

Another beast of a climber is a fairly empty MD11 at full power. Came out of MSP one night with a Regional jungle jet Capt sitting on the JS. He had never ridden on the MD was asking a bunch of questions. Almost empty so we decided another max blast was in order to, you know…blow the carbon off the plugs and well, just because..(none of that pesky passenger comfort stuff to worry about).
The jumpseater said that was incredibly impressive for it’s size and then was shocked when he asked if we were still climbing at 6000+ fpm out of 10K. I told him he should see how well it does when we start the tail engine. Good times…
 
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