NWA 188 - Sleep or Laptops?
- Thread starter J777Fly
- Start date
Not sure. I didn't hear anything about her after she left.
Thanks for the open opinions.
But seriously, I'd like to clear something up....
It was not my intention to offend or upset anyone with my post and poll. I was just merely expressing my disbelief of the situation. Because, like all of us who are interested in the story, we have been told by reliable sources - The NTSB, who are the ones investigating - that these guys were on their laptops.
I did not pluck this laptop story out of the air.
I did not suggest to the media that they were on their laptops
I did not start an internet rumour that they were on their laptops
The laptop story came straight from the NTSB through all the main media outlets.
So with that, I see the actions of the pilots as showing a degree of incompetence not befitting the role of Airline Pilot.
And because no relaible source close to the story has said that the laptop excuse was just a rumour, I can only take it as fact until proven otherwise. Why would the NTSB say they were on their laptops, when that fact was not proven from the interviews the pilots gave??
Oh..one more thing. I am a low houred pilot who is working on becoming commercial. But I don't think my low hours should stop me from expressing my views on what is obviously gross negligence on the part of two very experienced professionals.
I may not know how to fly an A320, as yet, but one thing I was taught at flight school....Aviate, Navigate and Communicate...in other words, fly the damn airplane!
But seriously, I'd like to clear something up....
It was not my intention to offend or upset anyone with my post and poll. I was just merely expressing my disbelief of the situation. Because, like all of us who are interested in the story, we have been told by reliable sources - The NTSB, who are the ones investigating - that these guys were on their laptops.
I did not pluck this laptop story out of the air.
I did not suggest to the media that they were on their laptops
I did not start an internet rumour that they were on their laptops
The laptop story came straight from the NTSB through all the main media outlets.
So with that, I see the actions of the pilots as showing a degree of incompetence not befitting the role of Airline Pilot.
And because no relaible source close to the story has said that the laptop excuse was just a rumour, I can only take it as fact until proven otherwise. Why would the NTSB say they were on their laptops, when that fact was not proven from the interviews the pilots gave??
Oh..one more thing. I am a low houred pilot who is working on becoming commercial. But I don't think my low hours should stop me from expressing my views on what is obviously gross negligence on the part of two very experienced professionals.
I may not know how to fly an A320, as yet, but one thing I was taught at flight school....Aviate, Navigate and Communicate...in other words, fly the damn airplane!
Baronman
Well-Known Member
Wow, this just solidified the notion in my head that AA/Eagle is about as rigid as it comes. What gives?
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
Veerrryyyyy interesting, Amber. Good story, too.
However, I take a different lesson from that story. I take it to mean that I shouldn't trust my boss to take care of me. Instead, my boss IS out to get me, and will do so at the first opportunity.
I have no doubt that this supervisor was a wonderful supervisor.
That said, I would NOT have fired her. Sometimes in this world . . . SOMETIMES . . . you just have to pretend that you misheard, and then change the subject very quickly.
Being a good boss doesn't mean that you must become the "enforcer", when that turns you into THE bad guy.
Again, your mileage may vary, and I'm not disagreeing or arguing with you. Just offering my perspective.
Loyalty. One of the 14 leadership traits of United States Marines.
"The quality of faithfulness to country, the Corps, the unit, to one's seniors, subordinates and peers."
Of particular interest here is the subordinates, seniors, and peers.
See, this supervisor valued her seniors more than her subordinates, instead of equally. I'd venture that this hurt the organization more than it helped.
However, I take a different lesson from that story. I take it to mean that I shouldn't trust my boss to take care of me. Instead, my boss IS out to get me, and will do so at the first opportunity.
I have no doubt that this supervisor was a wonderful supervisor.
That said, I would NOT have fired her. Sometimes in this world . . . SOMETIMES . . . you just have to pretend that you misheard, and then change the subject very quickly.
Being a good boss doesn't mean that you must become the "enforcer", when that turns you into THE bad guy.
Again, your mileage may vary, and I'm not disagreeing or arguing with you. Just offering my perspective.
Loyalty. One of the 14 leadership traits of United States Marines.
"The quality of faithfulness to country, the Corps, the unit, to one's seniors, subordinates and peers."
Of particular interest here is the subordinates, seniors, and peers.
See, this supervisor valued her seniors more than her subordinates, instead of equally. I'd venture that this hurt the organization more than it helped.
We all thought it was an incredibly stupid rule. A policy not based in safety, logic or anything that made any kind of sense. However, we could not argue that she didn't deserve to be fired if she did something that it was very clear she knew she'd get fired if she did. I can't explain why the policy existed, it came down from AMR corporate and that's the way it was.
I was very happy to hear that this policy changed a few years ago. What brought on the about-face in policy I have no idea.
In fact, I actually just remembered that AMR once had a contest, where employees were invited to write up a rule they thought was stupid. I think it was an effort to establish goodwill or something... I wrote a full-page letter on this particular subject, explaining why I thought it was stupid.
I could see her "plugging her ears", if the location of the admission had been anywhere but actually IN the physical office. There are always people in and out of there, and who knows who heard what... If someone else heard it, and reported it, and it was known that this supervisor knew of this and didn't do anything about it, she'd get fired too. Quite honestly, that's how AMR worked... For better or for worse.
It really was a very difficult situation. The rule was stupid. We all knew that. But, we also had to respect the rules and policy that was given to us. It wasn't as though the admission was made, and the company just arbitrarily decided to fire her. It was known to her, and everyone else, from the very first weeks of new hire class what the result is if you broke this particular policy.
If she hadn't gone in blabbing to the supervisor, she more than likely would never have been caught. The information of her seat assignment would have been visible if someone had looked for it, but no one would have had any reason to go looking if she hadn't admitted it.
mhcasey
Well-Known Member
To be clear: The dudes I think have been out of line defending screw ups are NOT guys like yourself that had to get a little creative in combat situations.
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
119.92464 miles is approximately how far they flew past the destination, based on straight line distance between MSP and their position at the point they were furthest east....
Maybe.... what I did was I took the lat/long of MSP (found here: http://www.airnav.com/airport/KMSP)
and calculated the distance (direct) between the lat/long point that they were approximately farthest to the east, found here: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NWA188/history/20091021/2135Z/KSAN/KMSP/tracklog) using this website: http://www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/latlong.html
CaptBill
Well-Known Member
When it is all said and done, it doesn't really matter what they did for that 70 minutes or so. Whatever it was, caused a loss of communication and the eventual MSP overflight. What we do know is that the flight landed safely (thank God) and the pilots lost their jobs and will likely never fly again. We can speculate all we want about sleep or computers, but the bottom line is two very accomplished pilots paid a very high price to provide us a valuable lesson on what happens when we fail to maintain the professionalism we all train so hard to achieve. Those who don't learn by others mistakes should not be surprised to see their own names in the newspaper some day.
roundout
VNAV monitor
Does it smell like cinammon buns when you pass gas while standing at the urinal?
I don't think there's a problem with asking questions.
WalterSobchak
Well-Known Member
*COUGH*blowingeachother*COUGH*
Orange Anchor
New Member
What counts as low time? Less than 1000hrs? Less than 5000 or 10,000? In talking to some of the old dogs I know, the consensus is they chose to violate policy/proc and unfortunately this time it came with severe consequence. It is not an issue of burning them at the stake as much as they placed themselves in the position. And everyone I know has felt for the guys and many admitted that they too had read in the cockpit, pulled out their computers, etc. No one is happy about this. It places the profession in a very bad light.There is no joy in mudville tonight.
VERY well said.
Nigel Croker
Well-Known Member
Ok you have way more free time than I do....:laff: I'll take your word for it, out to 5 decimal points indeed....
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
I think this does have, despite the initial furor, a potential for something positive to come from it.
People have repeatedly questioned the professionalism, abilities, and qualifications of the crew of Colgan Air 3407.
With this occurrence, a key point has been made- the size of the aircraft and the number of pages a pilot has filled in his or her logbook does not preclude them from human error.
You can no longer simply say that "well, damn, those regional pilots are a bunch of amateurs..."
When we view pilots as a group as human beings, which are fallible, error-prone creatures, we see the underlying issue present here.
When pilots are distracted, for whatever reason, they don't perform to peak standards, and in fact often far below minimum standards.
I don't know what happened in that NWA cockpit, but it's clear that something was amiss and led to a horrible diversion from the flight plan.
If pilots can do this that easily to themselves, why do we tolerate working conditions that place pilots in scenarios like what Renslow and Shaw had to endure in 3407?
Pilots are human beings, and when they screw up, bad things happen. If the pilots here were the contributing cause, well, I'll leave it to the FAA and their employer to deal with them. If not, we owe it to them, ourselves, and the flying public to understand why this happened so we can make sure it never happens again.
Ultimately, in this case, however, I'd say it looks grim. I'd need more information before I sent this crew to the guillotine just yet, though.
People have repeatedly questioned the professionalism, abilities, and qualifications of the crew of Colgan Air 3407.
With this occurrence, a key point has been made- the size of the aircraft and the number of pages a pilot has filled in his or her logbook does not preclude them from human error.
You can no longer simply say that "well, damn, those regional pilots are a bunch of amateurs..."
When we view pilots as a group as human beings, which are fallible, error-prone creatures, we see the underlying issue present here.
When pilots are distracted, for whatever reason, they don't perform to peak standards, and in fact often far below minimum standards.
I don't know what happened in that NWA cockpit, but it's clear that something was amiss and led to a horrible diversion from the flight plan.
If pilots can do this that easily to themselves, why do we tolerate working conditions that place pilots in scenarios like what Renslow and Shaw had to endure in 3407?
Pilots are human beings, and when they screw up, bad things happen. If the pilots here were the contributing cause, well, I'll leave it to the FAA and their employer to deal with them. If not, we owe it to them, ourselves, and the flying public to understand why this happened so we can make sure it never happens again.
Ultimately, in this case, however, I'd say it looks grim. I'd need more information before I sent this crew to the guillotine just yet, though.
roundout
VNAV monitor
DUmb Blackberry messed up my response above.
What I have a problem with is not anybody asking questions. That goes for low-timers and seasoned, salty veterans. If you're not learning, you should quit flying. In this instance, what I have a problem with is the media and general public sending in the firing squad against these two guys when we DON'T know anything about what happened. If it turns out that they were using a laptop or sleeping, then we discuss the consequences and punishment that the crew deserve. But why the rush to punishment when we don't know the crime? We don't even have to give them the benefit of the doubt here - they CLEARLY screwed the pooch on this one. Given that, why are we sitting here flapping our gums speculating about what happened when we will know SOON? If we could slow down, take a deep breath, and wait for the CVR tape or the report to come out, we would save a lot of Doug and Kristie's bandwidth. What's the rush?
What I have a problem with is not anybody asking questions. That goes for low-timers and seasoned, salty veterans. If you're not learning, you should quit flying. In this instance, what I have a problem with is the media and general public sending in the firing squad against these two guys when we DON'T know anything about what happened. If it turns out that they were using a laptop or sleeping, then we discuss the consequences and punishment that the crew deserve. But why the rush to punishment when we don't know the crime? We don't even have to give them the benefit of the doubt here - they CLEARLY screwed the pooch on this one. Given that, why are we sitting here flapping our gums speculating about what happened when we will know SOON? If we could slow down, take a deep breath, and wait for the CVR tape or the report to come out, we would save a lot of Doug and Kristie's bandwidth. What's the rush?
Orange Anchor
New Member
Oh, great. Now here come the politicians...
All we now need is the resident idiot Senator from New York to get before a mike and the circus will be complete.
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All we now need is the resident idiot Senator from New York to get before a mike and the circus will be complete.
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