NTSB Seeks Better Pilot Skills Oversight

Hi!

A guy who just got his ATP (1500+ hours), is a lot better than that same guy when he had 250 hours and a commercial (or 180 hours and a commercial, or when hired by a regional WITHOUT A COMMERCIAL LICENSE AT ALL!!!).

cliff
NBO
PS-If U didn't know: You do NOT need 250 for a Commercial. And, yes, several years ago, regional airline(s) WERE hiring guys who did NOT HAVE A COMMERCIAL LICENSE!!!
 
Situational based training is what AQP is all about, and it does weed out some.

The long time issue is not so much a person that has a one time problem, but rather is consistently weak. Having an ATP does nothing to alleviate this (although I do agree it should be a bottom requirement for other reasons). Someone can have an ATP based on having a good day, for example.

The lowest standards on checkrides were designed on the assumption that anyone can have an "off day" so if they are just making it on one particular ride, you don't have to necessarily "bust" them. However, the problem is created if an individual is ALWAYS performing at the "just good enough" standard. That's not ok. It's much harder to fix, though. We tried through CAST, but in the end, it was not possible to find a reasonable solution to the problem. More accurately, ATA, FAA, etc., did not feel they could do a lot, and left it up to the pilot unions to sort out. They never did. That was 10 years ago now. We, as an industry, are still waiting. It is still a problem, perhaps more of one now than it was then.
 
Goldmember said:
I can't believe we still measure commercial pilots based on stick skills in a lazy 8 and chandelle versus scenario based training and decision making skills...
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I agree. Anyone can be trained to fly a chandelle. Really, I couldn't care less if an airline pilot can do one. What we need to measure is whether or not a person can apply CRM, evaluate the alternatives, and make the right decisons when the stuff hits the fan.
 
germb747 said:
I agree. Anyone can be trained to fly a chandelle. Really, I couldn't care less if an airline pilot can do one. What we need to measure is whether or not a person can apply CRM, evaluate the alternatives, and make the right decisons when the stuff hits the fan.
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Don't underestimate pilot skill, either.
 
This is where probationary year needs to pull its slack as well. After initial, it's hard to tell whether or not a new guy is developing. I think at least four TRIPS (not observations) with multiple check airman over the course of a year is a good snapshot of pilot performance.

Orals, sim checks, and the like are good metrics, but line performance over the course of a year is as "content valid" as you can get.


J.
 
germb747 said:
I agree. Anyone can be trained to fly a chandelle. Really, I couldn't care less if an airline pilot can do one. What we need to measure is whether or not a person can apply CRM, evaluate the alternatives, and make the right decisons when the stuff hits the fan.
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I hate the fact that we make commercial students spend 10-20hrs and thousands of dollars doing repetitive chandelles, lazy 8s, and 8s on pylons when they could spend that time getting IFR cross country time that they desperately need. Stick and rudder skills are important but they don't help a whole lot when you are at minimum fuel picking up moderate mixed in IMC and have no idea what the hell is going on.
 
At what point did I say you don't need to have stick and rudder skills to be a good pilot or to obtain a commercial cert? I just hate the fact that people come in , do 10 hours of complex time and learn a couple maneuvers and BAM, here's your commercial cert, please be professional and don't slam your resume down for a $12,000 a year job. To me, Commercial=Professional.
 
Goldmember said:
At what point did I say you don't need to have stick and rudder skills to be a good pilot or to obtain a commercial cert? I just hate the fact that people come in , do 10 hours of complex time and learn a couple maneuvers and BAM, here's your commercial cert, please be professional and don't slam your resume down for a $12,000 a year job. To me, Commercial=Professional.
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Reminds me of a story my karate instructor told me in high school.

He told us about a new Brown Belt who came to him just after he'd been promoted. He said, "Sir, I don't think I'm really a good Brown Belt, and I don't think I deserve this."

Our teacher said, "You're right, you're not a good Brown Belt yet. You were promoted because you were a good Green Belt. You still have a lot to learn before you'll be a good Brown Belt."


The day I got my Private License, the examiner called it my 'license to learn'. I think if pilots keep that in mind, they'll be okay.
 
Good point, we shouldn't focus on good decision making skills, we should use the "guess and test" method so a new commercial cert pilot should go out and handle situations they've probably never even thought about before and just see how it turns out so they can "learn" from it. When I say scenario based training, I mean get in the sim and shoot approaches to mins in icing, fail your instruments in multiple ways, set the sim up in a different part of the country instead of flying the same approaches over and over, handle a medical emergency, handle a controller giving you a wrong clearance or vector into a mountain because he called your callsign mistakenly.... I just think we as instructors are doing our students a disservice by not introducing this stuff. We're lazy if we just do it the way its always been done...
 
Goldmember said:
Good point, we shouldn't focus on good decision making skills, we should use the "guess and test" method so a new commercial cert pilot should go out and handle situations they've probably never even thought about before and just see how it turns out so they can "learn" from it. When I say scenario based training, I mean get in the sim and shoot approaches to mins in icing, fail your instruments in multiple ways, set the sim up in a different part of the country instead of flying the same approaches over and over, handle a medical emergency, handle a controller giving you a wrong clearance or vector into a mountain because he called your callsign mistakenly.... I just think we as instructors are doing our students a disservice by not introducing this stuff. We're lazy if we just do it the way its always been done...
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I'm not advocating people be untrained, or at all untested. I'm just saying that the best thing a freshly minted pilot- at any level of certification- can have is the attitude that they're still very much a student.

If you start from the Private Pilot level with that, the learning curve at the Commercial level and beyond isn't nearly so steep.
 
I agree 100%. There are a couple good quotes like this in the book Captain 1 and 2 about always being humble and striving to learn every flight.
 
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