NTSB investigating ATC request Southwest to intercept Cirrus

Re: NTSB investigating ATC request Southwest to intercept Ci

scooter2525 said:
True, and they didnt have a plan agreed on and what's to say that the cirrus doesn't go haywire. But, as said the SWA cap has plenty of time to "break left"
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The thing is, I contend that they were never "in formation", as the stories are trying to lead us to believe. So none of above needed, really.
 
Re: NTSB investigating ATC request Southwest to intercept Ci

MikeD said:
The thing is, I contend that they were never "in formation", as the stories are trying to lead us to believe. So none of above needed, really.
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What would you call it? Doesn't seem like a loss of separation, but they didn't join up...

Situational checkup?
 
Re: NTSB investigating ATC request Southwest to intercept Ci

scooter2525 said:
What would you call it? Doesn't seem like a loss of separation, but they didn't join up...

Situational checkup?
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Sounds like a single pass, based on the description. Two planes simply going same way, same day; with one passing the other.
 
Re: NTSB investigating ATC request Southwest to intercept Ci

inigo88 said:
Sorry, I was posting from my phone and forgot to use the quote tag. I agree with you. I was responding to:



...And saying yes they do, but with visual separation this would be irrelevant.
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OTAY , yea i couldnt under stand what you were saying at first ;)
 
Re: NTSB investigating ATC request Southwest to intercept Ci

I read that today as well, BoonDR. SWA has visual five out, and isn't instructed to maintain visual separation? Not good.

At least DEN was notified and knew what was going on.
 
Re: NTSB investigating ATC request Southwest to intercept Ci

Yeah. Here's AvWeb's summary on the NTSB report:

737 Crew Got Close To Cirrus: NTSB

The NTSB says a Southwest Airlines Boeing 737 came within 100 feet and a tenth of a mile from a NORDO Cirrus SR22 over central Florida March 27 when the crew was asked by air traffic controllers to check on the condition of the Cirrus's occupants. Initial reports said the planes came within 1.2 miles of one another in the incident, which is one of a number of controller-related issues dominating the FAA's public agenda these days. In a preliminary report issued Friday, the NTSB says a fair amount of effort went into the reconnaissance mission.

According to the NTSB, the effort was led by a front-line manager at the Central Florida TRACON, which had been monitoring the silent Cirrus for about an hour. The Cirrus was headed to Kissimmee and eventually landed there as planned. The Southwest flight was about 10 miles from the Cirrus when the TRACON asked the Southwest crew to go and have a look. The crew "obliged" and was vectored to the Cirrus until they reported visual and TCAS contact. The TRACON set up a separate radar monitor and discrete frequency for the operation. After the crew reported the Cirrus in sight, the controller told them to "resume own navigation, get as close as safely possible and report any abnormalities." The NTSB said the airliner pilot flying "maneuvered on his own along side" the Cirrus. The Southwest crew has been suspended pending the investigation but there's no word on the fate of the manager and any other controllers involved. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood last week said the controller involved had been fired, but he was mistaken. A controller in Miami and one in Knoxville were fired last week for sleeping on the job.
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Re: NTSB investigating ATC request Southwest to intercept Ci

My take is that .1 miles and 100 feet is way to close for a 737 to be flying formation with a NORDO aircraft. It seems like ATC kind of played it fast and loose on this and once SWA had the SR22 visually they told them to do what ever they felt was safe. I agree that there should have been a maintain visual separation clearance issued, but at the end of the day (at least per the NTSB report) it seems like the SWA crew got as close as they felt was "safe". I disagree with their figure and in the end, I'm guessing the FAA will as well.
 
Re: NTSB investigating ATC request Southwest to intercept Ci

Id be interested to know the background of the SWA crew, former military/tactical jet? Also, was the WX "clear/blue/22?"

The Southwest flight was about 10 miles from the Cirrus when the TRACON asked the Southwest crew to go and have a look. The crew "obliged" and was vectored to the Cirrus until they reported visual and TCAS contact.
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If a properly trained crew with their background, and barring any OpsSpecs restrictions on SWAs end, I don't see any problem with ATC asking a question (not like it was an order), or the SWA crew accepting if they felt comfortable with the operation. If proceeding same way/same day with the Cirrus and with both visual as well the additional help of TCAS (though not needed) and doing a stern intercept, it's still nothing thats unsafe. A risk? Sure. But so is anything flying related.

The TRACON set up a separate radar monitor and discrete frequency for the operation.
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Standard for any intercept and smart to do for this one......discreet freq and dedicated controller for it.

the crew reported the Cirrus in sight, the controller told them to "resume own navigation, get as close as safely possible and report any abnormalities."
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Fair enough. And although "maintain visual separation" should be a legal call; it's also kind of obvious too......"don't hit the other aircraft". Yeah, no kidding. Still don't see any major problem here.

The NTSB said the airliner pilot flying "maneuvered on his own along side" the Cirrus.
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Remember 100' and 0.1 nm is still not that close. Appears it was a single pass and safely accomplished and appears to have been a single pass.

Two questions I have, one general and one for the masses:

General: If ATC had an issue of not knowing what was what with this Cirrus, why didn't they scramble a CBP C550 Citation or alert fighters or (if available) other military assets? It appears an hour had gone by. But if none were available, I'd be asking why on that?

Masses: For those wanting to crucify this SWA crew, I ask...what if this Cirrus had been an emergency aircraft with some sort of medical emergency (for example) and was NORDO or had a pax onboard who couldn't talk, and the SWA crew could've discovered this by their maneuver and passed this info on to ATC or otherwise assisted more? The crew would be hailed as heros. But because it didn't turn out to be that or similar, there are those who want to hang the guys. And on the ATC side, there are those who want to hang the controller because he was a sup?
 
Re: NTSB investigating ATC request Southwest to intercept Ci

BobDDuck said:
My take is that .1 miles and 100 feet is way to close for a 737 to be flying formation with a NORDO aircraft. It seems like ATC kind of played it fast and loose on this and once SWA had the SR22 visually they told them to do what ever they felt was safe. I agree that there should have been a maintain visual separation clearance issued, but at the end of the day (at least per the NTSB report) it seems like the SWA crew got as close as they felt was "safe". I disagree with their figure and in the end, I'm guessing the FAA will as well.
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For a single pass, I don't think its too bad. The SWA crew had to see inside the cockpit. If the SWA crew was form trained and they felt safe, in the end it turned out their judgement of safe was correct. And if the crew was properly formation trained, who is anyone who has no formal formation training to judge? Sure, we could "what if" this do death, but it wasn't like they formed up on the Cirrus and hung out there. And again on the maintain visual sep call. Legal? yes. More than obvious? It should be.

A big part of this is training. To me, if they knew what they were doing as former mil pilots, then they can judge "safe" IMO. If they were some regional civilians with no formal training in form, then their judgement would definitely come into question, as they wouldnt be qualified to determine safe for this kind of operation.
 
Re: NTSB investigating ATC request Southwest to intercept Ci

MikeD said:
Masses: For those wanting to crucify this SWA crew, I ask...what if this Cirrus had been an emergency aircraft with some sort of medical emergency (for example) and was NORDO or had a pax onboard who couldn't talk, and the SWA crew could've discovered this by their maneuver and passed this info on to ATC or otherwise assisted more? The crew would be hailed as heros. But because it didn't turn out to be that or similar, there are those who want to hang the guys. And on the ATC side, there are those who want to hang the controller because he was a sup?
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Just out of curiosity here, and I don't mean to contradict what you've said, as I agree with it...What could anyone have done if it was found that there was a medical emergency on the Cirrus? Short of having the FO jump from the wing of the 737 to the Cirrus, of course ;)
 
Re: NTSB investigating ATC request Southwest to intercept Ci

BeRich said:
Just out of curiosity here, and I don't mean to contradict what you've said, as I agree with it...What could anyone have done if it was found that there was a medical emergency on the Cirrus? Short of having the FO jump from the wing of the 737 to the Cirrus, of course ;)
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At least ATC would know and could get proper procedures going and scramble chase aircraft to shadow the aircraft and clear wherever it was headed. Much like was done in the Payne Stewart and Bo Rein cases.
 
Re: NTSB investigating ATC request Southwest to intercept Ci

MikeD said:
For a single pass, I don't think its too bad. The SWA crew had to see inside the cockpit. If the SWA crew was form trained and they felt safe, in the end it turned out their judgement of safe was correct. And if the crew was properly formation trained, who is anyone who has no formal formation training to judge?
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Even if they had formation training, what's the likelihood that it was in a 737? I know training is training and type may be somewhat of a moot point, but still I, with training or not, don't feel that an aircraft full of paying passengers should be flying an unbriefed single pass of another aircraft, especially one that has been NORDO for the past hour.
 
Re: NTSB investigating ATC request Southwest to intercept Ci

BobDDuck said:
Even if they had formation training, what's the likelihood that it was in a 737? I know training is training and type may be somewhat of a moot point, but still I, with training or not, don't feel that an aircraft full of paying passengers should be flying an unbriefed single pass of another aircraft, especially one that has been NORDO for the past hour.
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Doesn't matter 737 or not. The training for caging one's eyeballs and knowing what to look for and how to set up are the same, similar or dissimilar. What difference does paying pax make? Safe is safe. If these guys were trained and there was no OpsSpecs violation, then whats so bad about doing a good samaritan deed IF it can be done safely? Again, its not like they formed up on the Cirrus and hung out with it in formation. By all accounts, it seems reasonable precautions were taken. THAT said, my only question would be if any other aircraft was or was not available and why nothing was used in the past hour IF the NORDO Cirrus was a concern of ATC.

Insofar as being unbriefed, I understand what you're getting at, but understand that every airborne intercept is an unbriefed maneuver...as the aircraft being intercepted generally isnt going to be knowing they're being intercepted. Thats the nature of intercepts. The collision avoidance responsibility is on the intercepting aircraft and reasonable precautions need to be taken, as they seem to have been here based on what we know.

And again, if these guys were able to somehow help an aircraft in distress had that been the case, would you still be wanting them shot at sundown?

Don't get me wrong, if they weren't trained for formation flight or there was something in the OpsSpecs prohibiting the action, then there's not much leg for them to stand on unfortunately. Assuming that isn't the case, I can appreciate the initiative.
 
Re: NTSB investigating ATC request Southwest to intercept Ci

If the SWA crew sees any further repercussions from this, that would be ridiculous. Pilots have to be able to trust ATC.
 
Re: NTSB investigating ATC request Southwest to intercept Ci

I heard "Never Again Volunteer Yourself" a lot as a kid.
 
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