NTSB Info from Recent 172 crash

[jrh]

I don't know guys.

Even if you KNOW that a plane can fly overgross, it's obviously NOT a good idea or practice to get into the habit of.

The trouble is, the plane MAY fly overgross, but what happens when you take away the standard conditions that you're use to flying in, put the plane into a different environment / flight regime that it obviously isn't certified for.

That whole knowing the plane can fly overgross goes right out the engine exhaust, and you find yourself in the ground.

Don't mess around with your numbers, and fly the damn thing by the POH.

Shouldn't be too difficult.

I completely agree. I would never advocate that it's acceptable to exceed limitations clearly established by the manufacturer.

As has been said, anyone who does so becomes a test pilot.

HOWEVER, I want people to understand flying is not a black and white activity, it's full of shades of grey.

Can we fly 1 pound over gross? Yep, in fact I bet a lot of people have done so by mistake. How about 10? I won't lie, I'd do it in a pinch. 100? That's pushing it. 1000? That's nuts. There will come a point when the plane won't get off the ground, but we don't know exactly when. Personally, I don't want to be the guy who finds out.

I wish this could be a clear cut case of "Don't overload your planes, boys and girls," but it's not. There are numerous factors involved and nobody is talking about anything except the extra weight.

How about the fact that the plane stalled? Planes don't drop out of the sky for no reason. The pilot stalled the plane because he exceeded the critical angle of attack. Why he exceeded the critical AoA is anybody's guess, but I can guarantee the extra weight was only one factor of many.

Why was he maneuving too low to recover? Why did he ignore the stall horn? Did he get distracted? What other pressures was he under to complete the flight? When was the last time he flew that plane under similar conditions?

The list could go on and on.

 

[jrh]

True indeed, we know that accidents are almost always a chain of events. Not to oversimplify it, but had the flight been scrapped becuase of the extra weight, there would not have been 4 deaths.

It only takes one step to break the chain and that did not happen here. If they left within weight/cg an accident MAY have still occurred, but this exact incident would not have happened.

I could list a dozen reasons to cancel a flight. If the pilot had decided to cancel for any reason, there would not have been 4 deaths.

You're right that this *exact* incident would not have happened if they'd left within weight limits, but the same could be said for if they had been flying 500 feet higher or 20 knots faster.

 

[surreal1221]

I completely agree. I would never advocate that it's acceptable to exceed limitations clearly established by the manufacturer.

As has been said, anyone who does so becomes a test pilot.

HOWEVER, I want people to understand flying is not a black and white activity, it's full of shades of grey.

Can we fly 1 pound over gross? Yep, in fact I bet a lot of people have done so by mistake. How about 10? I won't lie, I'd do it in a pinch. 100? That's pushing it. 1000? That's nuts. There will come a point when the plane won't get off the ground, but we don't know exactly when. Personally, I don't want to be the guy who finds out.

I wish this could be a clear cut case of "Don't overload your planes, boys and girls," but it's not. There are numerous factors involved and nobody is talking about anything except the extra weight.

How about the fact that the plane stalled? Planes don't drop out of the sky for no reason. The pilot stalled the plane because he exceeded the critical angle of attack. Why he exceeded the critical AoA is anybody's guess, but I can guarantee the extra weight was only one factor of many.

Why was he maneuving too low to recover? Why did he ignore the stall horn? Did he get distracted? What other pressures was he under to complete the flight? When was the last time he flew that plane under similar conditions?

The list could go on and on.

Considering the usual visitor here at JC is a young, new, wet behind the ear, private pilot student. . .I can't say I advocate discussing the ways and abilities of an aircraft to fly overgross.

Sure, he could have been flying higher. . .but so what. He still was flying overgross, and who knows where his CG was, perhaps beyond the aft limit - making any stall recovery even more difficult. We can speculate about this all day, all week, all month, all year.

What we shouldn't be doing, here at least, is dictating the different circumstances a 172 can/could be flown overgross. IMHO.

 

[jrh]

Considering the usual visitor here at JC is a young, new, wet behind the ear, private pilot student. . .I can't say I advocate discussing the ways and abilities of an aircraft to fly overgross.

Fair enough. I guess we have different philosophies about some things. I'm more one of those "knowledge is power, censorship is bad," kind of guys. I'm not going to say it's impossible to fly over gross weight, because it's not. I'm not going to protect inexperienced pilots by telling them something that's exaggerated or untrue.

I want people, regardless of their experience level, to make intelligent decisions and have reasons for doing things the way they do. I want them to have a broad perspective and not blindly follow advice without understanding the deeper issues involved.

Sure, he could have been flying higher. . .but so what. He still was flying overgross, and who knows where his CG was, perhaps beyond the aft limit - making any stall recovery even more difficult. We can speculate about this all day, all week, all month, all year.

So what??? So maybe this accident was caused by low level maneuvering, coupled with a macho attitude and maybe poor rudder coordination skills on the part of the pilot.

You're right, we are speculating, but I don't see how my speculation that the accident was caused by other factors is any worse than you speculating that it was caused by weight. Let's face it, both are equally speculative and each are equally likely.

What we shouldn't be doing, here at least, is dictating the different circumstances a 172 can/could be flown overgross. IMHO.

I'm not dictating any circumstances. I've made it clear it *shouldn't* be done, and it's hard to predict what'll happen if it is done. But we're lying if we straight up say it *can't* be done. It can.

 

[ALSF2]

The Cessna rep was quick to respond by pointing out that any time you fly the a/c outside of the envelope, you become a test pilot - that they can't tell you how the plane is going to fly outside of the envelope. It was pretty interesting.

I've heard this from my flight instructors. I don't want to be a test pilot unless I be gettin paid for dat.

 

[mhcasey]

Not an expert here, but I believe weight and balance certification is based on a number of factors other than "can it still fly?" Example: Can we add another 200lbs, make a rough landing, and expect the gear to still be attached to the airplane?

I'm not sure this actually applies to any light singles, but there is also the issue of zero fuel weight.

By the way for any mislead noobs on this post...At some point adding enough weight will prevent the airplane from flying. Above posters are pointing out that a typical C172 a 100lbs over weight will still fly. Assumptions:

1) You're at a reasonably low density altitude.
2) You have no desire to reach a reasonably high density altitude.
3) You have no desire to reach a slightly higher but still low density altitude any time soon (poor climb rate).
4) You have enough runway to compensate for the increased ground roll on takeoff.
5) This list could go on for a long time...

When the power required curve is higher than the power available, you might get the plane into ground effect if you roll downhill, but you might not ever clear those trees at the end of the runway...

 

[Malko]

I could list a dozen reasons to cancel a flight. If the pilot had decided to cancel for any reason, there would not have been 4 deaths.

You're right that this *exact* incident would not have happened if they'd left within weight limits, but the same could be said for if they had been flying 500 feet higher or 20 knots faster.

....And the weight probably had more to do with why they weren't...But anyways......Way over gross....Simple enough, don't fly.....