North Up vs. Track Up

I like to see that I am heading west, east, or what have you. If someone who is weak on navigation or lacks general "big picture" skills learns to use track up then I can see them unknowingly flying to the wrong place when they fat finger the identifier and they don't figure it out until they get there because they just followed the magenta line the whole way there and it looked right because the track aways goes straight up every time. I understand that most pilots have brains and common sense... i'm just saying there is always that 2% out there.
 
I strongly disagree. I am aware that North Up is used in ships, often, but they are moving much slower. The pilot MUST have the SA regarding where things are relative to the direction you are MOVING. It might be possible to get away with the North Up in the relatively slow light aircraft environment, but at jet speeds with terrain around, it is bad, and it is a bad habit at the outset to learn that way when you'll have to do it the other way later on, if you do move up the ladder.
 
seagull said:
I strongly disagree. I am aware that North Up is used in ships, often, but they are moving much slower. The pilot MUST have the SA regarding where things are relative to the direction you are MOVING. It might be possible to get away with the North Up in the relatively slow light aircraft environment, but at jet speeds with terrain around, it is bad, and it is a bad habit at the outset to learn that way when you'll have to do it the other way later on, if you do move up the ladder.
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Very well put seagull.

You look at track up, just like you would an HSI. You don't tune the HSI to north if you're using RNAV either....

For those of you that fly the fancy GA stuff, doesn't the heading display at the top of the track? Ours does, and I'd imagine the GA stuff does too, since the GA stuff is light years ahead of the archaic 747-400
 
Actually, in looking at some of my pictures from my G1000 days.

The MFD will only show the track going forward in the track up. I never used North Up, so I have nothing to go off of. . .but with track up, no heading was indicated on the MFD. But, on the PFD and with the HSI, a heading was obviously shown.

The heading would remain, obviously, if the MFD map display was set to North Up (eek!)
 
subpilot said:
I like to see that I am heading west, east, or what have you. If someone who is weak on navigation or lacks general "big picture" skills learns to use track up then I can see them unknowingly flying to the wrong place when they fat finger the identifier and they don't figure it out until they get there because they just followed the magenta line the whole way there and it looked right because the track aways goes straight up every time. I understand that most pilots have brains and common sense... i'm just saying there is always that 2% out there.
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It seems like a couple of times it has been mentioned that people that track north up are better at navigation. When comes to GPS aren't we all following needles? And if you are saying it takes more effort to fly north up, doesn't that mean track up is easier and isn't easier what we are going for?

I only know one guy that has the map north up and that ain't don't make no sense to me.
 
Douglas said:
It seems like a couple of times it has been mentioned that people that track north up are better at navigation. When comes to GPS aren't we all following needles? And if you are saying it takes more effort to fly north up, doesn't that mean track up is easier and isn't easier what we are going for?

I only know one guy that has the map north up and that ain't don't make no sense to me.
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I would say the converse is true, overall.
 
Douglas said:
It seems like a couple of times it has been mentioned that people that track north up are better at navigation. When comes to GPS aren't we all following needles? And if you are saying it takes more effort to fly north up, doesn't that mean track up is easier and isn't easier what we are going for?

I only know one guy that has the map north up and that ain't don't make no sense to me.
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So what is easiest should determine which mode of an avionics suite is should be used? Regardless of the situation?

As a former navigator I am glad I am done shooting 3 star fixes. Hardest thing I've ever done in aviation including aerobatics. Based on your response as well as others, it appears that everyone is happy to use the path of least resistance. Why learn to use your avionics to the fullest?? uuugh
 
granlistillo said:
Based on your response as well as others, it appears that everyone is happy to use the path of least resistance. Why learn to use your avionics to the fullest?? uuugh
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I don't think that was the just of the OP. It's not a matter of learning to use your avionics to the fullest, it's a matter of providing yourself with the best and most useful information to give yourself the best SA.

Some people may find a "north-up" orientation is the best. I doubt they are in the majority. I'm sure there's a reason when most part 25 airplanes fire up to a "track up" orientation on the Navigation display. I'm not saying that's the end-all, be-all, but there's a reason for it.
 
Polar,
It's all good. I have the utmost respect for you as an aviator. Can't say I disagree with your post. When I fly around in my little artic jet, I am in trk up - fo' real. The question of the OP I believe could be boiled down to, which way is best? My only answer is be comfortable in both. I even bothered to try to give a little historical perspective. I believe that most guys, who arent use to a 360 ppi, or who didnt learn the garmin 100 during ppl training, will automatically be biased towards a trk or hdg up system.
I've flown with 121 captains that didnt have a clue between a rhumb line and a GC, and swore up and down about the accuracy of the 1/60 rule (ie an approximation of the sine of 1 degree) at large angles. In the end they havent got lost on their one way track, so who am I to judge?
 
granlistillo said:
My only answer is be comfortable in both.
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I agree 100%...learn all you can, my man.

I even bothered to try to give a little historical perspective.
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If you can shoot the stars and sun, you have my utmost respect and a skill I'd love to learn

I believe that most guys, who arent use to a 360 ppi, or who didnt learn the garmin 100 during ppl training, will automatically be biased towards a trk or hdg up system.
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I have no ideal what a 360ppi or a garmin 100 is, so I may have been talking out of school. If so, I apologize.


I've flown with 121 captains that didnt have a clue between a rhumb line and a GC, and swore up and down about the accuracy of the 1/60 rule (ie an approximation of the sine of 1 degree) at large angles. In the end they havent got lost on their one way track, so who am I to judge?
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I understand, and have seen the same. I will say the "MAGENTA LINE", if programmed correctly, is infallible. However, that is not an excuse not to be educated in navigation basics to cross-check the inputs to the nav system.

Cheers and beers my good man....
 
sorry I need to retire from the field before I becoming annoying man. Navigation talk tends to bring out the geek in me. If I had to learn one method, TRK up my boy...
 
granlistillo said:
sorry I need to retire from the field before I becoming annoying man. Navigation talk tends to bring out the geek in me. If I had to learn one method, TRK up my boy...
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No way dude...the more we learn, the better.

Pay it forward!!!
 
Polar742 said:
For those of you that fly the fancy GA stuff, doesn't the heading display at the top of the track?
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It depends. The handheld X96 and X95 series give you a choice of displays.

To continue on the theme of personal choice, although I personally prefer track up, the map page display on my 495 I choose for IFR situational awareness is different than the one I choose for VFR.
 
seagull said:
I strongly disagree. I am aware that North Up is used in ships, often, but they are moving much slower.
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Interesting. On the ships I have ridden on, I have only seen track up. But then again the only ship I have seen with GPS was a High Speed Craft, so that might have something to do with it.:)
 
Why not just to it the way Airbus does it? HEADING up? :D

I prefer Track up, because it's easier to interpret the data that way. What's on the screen matches what's outside. I think my SA is better that way.

You do have to be cautious though, as the Track up orientation caused me to miss an error once. It was a fairly high workload situation, flying the noise abatement procedure from an unfamiliar airport, and the GPS had not been programmed for the destination yet. There I was, getting vectors while trying to set up the GPS, when I'm told to proceed on course. The instruction came JUST as I'd entered the destination, and the pink like appeared, so I immediately started turning to get on the line. Luckily, I crossed checked my heading while I was in the turn, and quickly realized that it wasn't making any sense. I reversed the turn to the approximate direction I knew I needed, then went to see what was wrong. In the rush, I had entered a wrong letter in the airport code, so the GPS was taking my Cessna to an airport some 2000nm away!

What did I learn?

Always have the navigation information set up and verified before entering the runway.

When selecting DIRect TO a waypoint (Garmin 430), always zoom out and make sure you're selecting the right thing, and check that the heading makes sense. (Reiteration of a lesson learned from AA in Cali)
 
Actually, to clarify, I did mean HEADING up, not TRACK up. I think that was the original intent. I'm not sure that anybody flies with TRACK up, normally. I switch to it momentarily, but that's it. I keep the HEADING up, and use North UP for planning purposes only, such as to confirm the routing in the FMS is matching the chart.

Chief Captain said:
Why not just to it the way Airbus does it? HEADING up? :D

I prefer Track up, because it's easier to interpret the data that way. What's on the screen matches what's outside. I think my SA is better that way.

You do have to be cautious though, as the Track up orientation caused me to miss an error once. It was a fairly high workload situation, flying the noise abatement procedure from an unfamiliar airport, and the GPS had not been programmed for the destination yet. There I was, getting vectors while trying to set up the GPS, when I'm told to proceed on course. The instruction came JUST as I'd entered the destination, and the pink like appeared, so I immediately started turning to get on the line. Luckily, I crossed checked my heading while I was in the turn, and quickly realized that it wasn't making any sense. I reversed the turn to the approximate direction I knew I needed, then went to see what was wrong. In the rush, I had entered a wrong letter in the airport code, so the GPS was taking my Cessna to an airport some 2000nm away!

What did I learn?

Always have the navigation information set up and verified before entering the runway.

When selecting DIRect TO a waypoint (Garmin 430), always zoom out and make sure you're selecting the right thing, and check that the heading makes sense. (Reiteration of a lesson learned from AA in Cali)
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The B75/76 uses a track up display whereas the A300 uses a heading up display. I prefer the track up. Took me a while to get use to the Airbus display and 8 yrs later I still miss the track up...in fact, I still miss the B757!:D
 
One reason I think I like north up is because it matches my approach charts.

The sectional definitely goes heading up though, that's the only way to roll.
 
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