NoPT Question....

Shiftace

Shiftace

s***posting with decency. trolling with integrity.
I think the green and magenta needle has been hashed out - and the DPE finally weighed in.

However another question came up today. Pertaining to the VOR-A at K78 below. You are approaching the final approach course from the southwest (as noted by the arrow). ATC (or DPE in this case) instructs you to fly the present heading and intercept the final approach course and report established. Once cleared... do you have to do one lap in the racetrack at CHALK?

I say yes. Others say No as it says NoPT... but to me that is only if you begin at the VOR, not if intercepting along the route. Am I wrong?

Yes, in the real world we ask ATC ... but when it is the DPE.. what do y'all do???

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I’m also a no. You’ve been vectored to intercept the course outbound from the VOR. Whether or not you flew over the Navaid is irrelevant.

If I remember correctly, that hold depicted isn’t a hold in lieu of a PT that’s the hold for the missed approach.
 
If you’re vector to intercept the final outside the holding pattern at 3000’ then what’s the point of flying the hold? Seems a little redundant from the “dept of Redundancy dept”. ATC would probably also wonder what you’re doing. If you’re high or approaching from the SE, E or NE then getting turned round in the hold makes sense. Otherwise, once cleared…it’s a straight in approach.

But, like SteveC….I’m also retired so no more skin in the game and I’ve forgotten most of these “stump the monkey” type questions so YMMV.
 
K78 holds some good memories. First attempt at solo was there. Mechanical issues prevented that. Then later as a CFI I dumped into there when oil pressure starting fluxing too bad on a return leg from an LWC cross country. Also the local flying priest landed 6234C in a postage stamp sized field just short of the runway when he ran it out of fuel coming back from MinnaSOda. Good times.
 
No, not if on vectors. Maybe the DPE just wanted to see the holding entry as part of the checkride? That’s the only thing I can think of, but I also haven’t instructed in 20 years so I could be wrong.
 
arkflyr said:
No, not if on vectors. Maybe the DPE just wanted to see the holding entry as part of the checkride? That’s the only thing I can think of, but I also haven’t instructed in 20 years so I could be wrong.
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could have done direct chalk then since its an IAF
unless we’re playing with non rnav scenario
 
SNoRT.

Straight In
NoPT routing
Radar Vectors
Timed Approach.

The four times the HILO doesn’t need to be flown.

What is the purpose of the HILO? It’s a course reversal in the form of a hold, designed to align you with the final approach course.
 
MikeD said:
SNoRT.

Straight In
NoPT routing
Radar Vectors
Timed Approach.

The four times the HILO doesn’t need to be flown.

What is the purpose of the HILO? It’s a course reversal in the form of a hold, designed to align you with the final approach course.
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SHARPTT.
 
arkflyr said:
No, not if on vectors. Maybe the DPE just wanted to see the holding entry as part of the checkride? That’s the only thing I can think of, but I also haven’t instructed in 20 years so I could be wrong.
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They fly this approach to a missed (usually while on final about 50 feet before touchdown) and then hold as published.
 
You are intercepting a segment that is labeled “NoPT”. The hold in lieu of a PT exists for course reversal, but you are coming straight in and don’t need a course reversal. Don’t fly the hold…

I’m not sure if this analogy helps, but if you were flying straight in on the final approach course of a VOR approach with a PT, you wouldn’t make a 180 at the FAF, fly outbound, make a procedure turn, then proceed back inbound right? That’s the equivalent of what you were telling your students to do…
 
Shiftace said:
I think the green and magenta needle has been hashed out - and the DPE finally weighed in.

However another question came up today. Pertaining to the VOR-A at K78 below. You are approaching the final approach course from the southwest (as noted by the arrow). ATC (or DPE in this case) instructs you to fly the present heading and intercept the final approach course and report established. Once cleared... do you have to do one lap in the racetrack at CHALK?

I say yes. Others say No as it says NoPT... but to me that is only if you begin at the VOR, not if intercepting along the route. Am I wrong?

Yes, in the real world we ask ATC ... but when it is the DPE.. what do y'all do???

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Nope!

A procedure turn is a maneuver meant to get you to the initial approach fix to the final approach course with ample distance to safely execute an instrument approach.

If you’re at the position and track as indicated by the arrow, there is no need to perform a procedure turn.
 
DPE here (not that my opinion is worth more than anyone else’s).

I’d say no procedure turn or HILO (hold in lieu of procedure turn) is required due to:

You’re being vectored onto the final approach course, or
You’re established on a segment that specifies “No PT.”
Either of these conditions eliminates the requirement to fly the hold in lieu of a procedure turn.

However, the incorrect reasoning is: “Because you’re doing a straight-in approach, you don’t have to fly the hold.” Remember, you must be cleared for a straight-in approach—merely flying straight-in doesn’t suffice. ATC may issue a verbal clearance along the lines of: “Cross CHALK at 3000 feet, cleared straight-in approach.”

You can always request a straight-in approach if ATC doesn’t offer one. Keep in mind, though, that accepting a straight-in clearance also means accepting any associated descent rate requirements, which may be non-standard or especially aggressive in mountainous areas.
 
arkflyr said:
No, not if on vectors. Maybe the DPE just wanted to see the holding entry as part of the checkride? That’s the only thing I can think of, but I also haven’t instructed in 20 years so I could be wrong.
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If you are already established on final and ATC instructs "Direct CHALK, Cleared RNAV approach," does it mean you need to do the course reversal?
 
drunkenbeagle said:
If you are already established on final and ATC instructs "Direct CHALK, Cleared RNAV approach," does it mean you need to do the course reversal?
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I wouldn’t. Whole purpose of the HILO is a course reversal in the form of a hold, to align with the final approach course. If you’re already established in final, there’s no need for the hold.
 
MikeD said:
I wouldn’t. Whole purpose of the HILO is a course reversal in the form of a hold, to align with the final approach course. If you’re already established in final, there’s no need for the hold.
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Its not the whole purpose. Many times in mountainous areas, its because of the descent requirements. For example in my hometown the minimum vectoring altitude is 10,000 feet. You also lose radar coverage below that. So if you tried to do a straight in with a "cleared to (IF) cross at 10,000, cleared approach" , you would be hard pressed to meet the descent requirements unless you did a HILO.

However many times ATC expects you to go straight in. In this case I would inquire (pending on what "established" means).
 
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