night solo

I always found flying at night to be much easier and safer, winds are usually calmer and traffic avoidance is a lot easier*, GA airports are less busy... So long as they recognize and are trained in what to expect it would probably be safer than during the day.

*So long as their lights are on. :P
 
C310_pilot said:
This is the weakest argument I have ever heard not to mention unprofessional. If I sign a student off its because I believe he is safe to learn. The checkairman is there to double check for any holes in a students training. If one of my former students gets hurt 100, 200, 400 hrs down the road I need to evaluate the job I am doing and take responsability. It is our job as CFIs to properly prepair pilots, not to give them the minimum training. I don't train to good enough, I train better than that.
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You might not like my argument, but the truth is there is no reason to solo a student at night. All of the 'big lessons' a pre-private learns, should be learned with you in the airplane. If you take your student on a couple of night flights and they do fine, you have done your job. Anything they learn on a night solo can just as well be learned after they get their ppl. I am not saying that you should not do a good job teaching your students, but there is no benefit to letting a student solo any more than they have to.

There are quite a few other endorsements you can give a student, like flying in class B, soloing from or to an airport in class B, and repeated CC flights of less than 50nm. I don't see much benefit to using any of them if it can be avoided. As a CFI, most make little as it is. The last thing anyone needs is to get sued or end up under the FAA's microscope after their student bends an airplane or causes some other kind of incident.
 
C310_pilot said:
Yet its responsable to send a 50hr guy for a checkride and the faa sign him off. Now he is out running around unsupervised. I would much rather him gain experance under supervision then get his license. Longer I have him the more prepaired I can make him for the real world of flying.
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I'm a little confused as to how a student would be under your supervision on a solo flight.
 
flyguy said:
I'm a little confused as to how a student would be under your supervision on a solo flight.
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Review thier flight plan, review weather together, review the airspace, quiz them on specifics of the flight before they leave, fuel reserves...... Debrief them when they get back, talk about concerns, unexpected events etc.....

you know...SUPERVISED SOLO FLIGHT
 
This type of supervision would be no different at night than it would be during the day. The supervision stops as soon as he leaves. You cannot supervise him as he gets himself into a graveyard spiral, or lands on a taxiway. If you want to truely supervise the student then why not give dual instruction? If flying solo as a pre-private is no different than flying solo as a newly minted PPL, the same can be said for a student who's instructor is actually in the plane while he gains the valuable night experience, and another who is solo. The expereince is gained either way, and with the instructor on board, there is less a chance the the stuent will have to learn about night illusions the way JFK Jr did. There is a time to lenthen the leash. A student may or may not be ready for night flying beofre the checkride, and the student may or may not be ready after the checkride. I agree with those that say that a proficeint student is no different than a newly minted PPL. However that piece of paper shifts the responsibility of determing what the airman can safely do from the instructor to the pilot. An instructor can legally endorse a student to fly at night. If that student has a lot of dual night experience and has demonstrated proficiency, then maybe its a good idea. Another student with only the minimum experience can also legally be endorsed, but it may not be as good an idea in that case, and it may not be a good idea for that pilot to fly at night even after the checkride until he gains more experience, perhaps during his instrument training, where he'll become proficient on trusting his instruments and less likley to fall victim to illusions.
 
I think the bottom line is that it's up to the individual instructor, based on the individual student.

Saying, "I think that it's too risky to solo a student at night" is much like syaing, "I think that it's too risky to solo a student if there is more than 5 knots of crosswind". It's just not that simple. I've had students that I would solo in 15 knots of crosswind, and others that I wouldn't solo with more than 5 knots.

Are you leaving yourself open to a lot of liability by allowing a student to solo at night? Without a doubt. However, we do that each and every time we solo a student - even in the daytime. If your number one priority is to negate risk at any cost, then perhaps being a CFI isn't for you.

As I see it, my job as a CFI is to prepare a student for life AFTER primary training. Class C (or B is it's available), night flying, lots of cross country experience - it's all a part of the package.
 
mtsu_av8er said:
I think the bottom line is that it's up to the individual instructor, based on the individual student.

Saying, "I think that it's too risky to solo a student at night" is much like syaing, "I think that it's too risky to solo a student if there is more than 5 knots of crosswind". It's just not that simple. I've had students that I would solo in 15 knots of crosswind, and others that I wouldn't solo with more than 5 knots.

Are you leaving yourself open to a lot of liability by allowing a student to solo at night? Without a doubt. However, we do that each and every time we solo a student - even in the daytime. If your number one priority is to negate risk at any cost, then perhaps being a CFI isn't for you.

As I see it, my job as a CFI is to prepare a student for life AFTER primary training. Class C (or B is it's available), night flying, lots of cross country experience - it's all a part of the package.
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:yeahthat:
 
I agree. Risk is not part of your job as a CFI, it IS your job. Not only as a CFI but also as a Pilot. Am I saying that you should just accept that and move on? No...you do things to minimize the risk (proper training, preparedness, etc..), both for you and for your student.

Im not sure if I would ever solo a student pilot at night...guess it depends on the student and the situation. On one hand....its definitly a good experience builder. But, on the other, it adds alot more risk...even for the most well trained pilots. You have to weigh the pros vs the cons. Personally, I dont think the pros outweigh the cons because im not sure there is much more a student could get by soloing at night as opposed to having me ride with him/her. Just an opinion...take it for what its worth.

BTW...there is a MAJOR difference between a student pilot and a freshly minted ppl. Both are realitivly inexperienced; however, the student pilot relies on his/her instructor as a crutch and a ppl is his own decision maker now.
 
dbakeg00 said:
You have to weigh the pros vs the cons. Personally, I dont think the pros outweigh the cons because im not sure there is much more a student could get by soloing at night as opposed to having me ride with him/her. Just an opinion...take it for what its worth.
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Devil's Advocate: What if the only way this person could fly with any regularity was at night? What if their job had NO flexibility whatsoever?
 
mtsu_av8er said:
Devil's Advocate: What if the only way this person could fly with any regularity was at night? What if their job had NO flexibility whatsoever?
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Do you really want your students practicing turns-around-a-point, and other ground ref manuevers at night solo???? What about slow flight and stalls??? The solo time should not just be flying around in circles in the practice area.

I think the original question was pertaining to the possibility that he would be coming back from a XC after dark. I personally would not recomend it, but I understand the situation. If you feel comfortable with his night skills and he has no issue with it, sign him off. That is what CFI'ing is all about!
 
Gotcha. Thanks. Only reason I asked is that in a night environment, even with 100% moon illumination, there is more reliance on instruments.
 
What if the stud is flying in an area where there is only an hour of daylight? What if they have 200 hrs, 100 at night and are about to take the commercial check as their first ride? If, in your professional judgement, it is acceptable and practical to have them solo at night, go for it.

As for the liability being gone after they pass the Pvt ride, think again. Who do you think the feds want to talk too after a new pilot buys the farm? His CFI and the examiner. There's a reason CFIs have to keep records for years.
 
I agree with what the last guy said. I was more worried about my students AFTER they got their license than before, because now they feel independent and may or may not feel the need to listen to anyone anymore. Prime example, another CFI that I worked with had a student get his license and then the next morning take his young nephew and launch into 1SM visibility. Maybe he was to used to having his hand held through a weather briefing, I dont know, but I know I personally worried about my students and tried to keep up with them even after they finished their license.
 
I sort of agree with the theory here, but I would probably emphasize a few things a little more before letting a student go solo at night that are particularly related to night. Here's a short list of thing that you might consider:

1. Instrument flying. Some instrument instruction is probably appropriate prior to any night XC because night requires more reference to the instruments for both navigation, and just to keep the greasy side on the bottom.

2. Spatial Disorientation. Obviously this could be a factor when it never has been before. Also, some of the illusions are night only. For example, the airplane looks higher when it's flying above dim runway lights (tendency to flare late) and lower when the runway lights are bright (tendency to flare early). There's also the black hole effect (tendency to get very low if there are no lights leading up to the runway).

3. Consider only allowing landings at places with a visual glide path indicator system. See #2 above for the reasoning.

4. Consider only allowing the student to land at a field with lighting that is NOT pilot controlled. (Unless you know for sure he is very familiar with it... If he's read about it once, but never done it, you don't want him trying to figure it out by himself.)

5. Consider only allowing the student to land at a towered field. Sure, it's more complicated than an un-towered field, but it might be nice having someone to ask for help if things get...weird.

6. Ensure the student is at least as well prepared as you would be on a good day. (I.E. he has a flashlight, and maybe also he has some spare batteries).

In all, your mental "I'm getting ready to let a guy go solo" checklist wouldn't be enough. You'd probably need a mental "I'm getting a guy ready to go solo AT NIGHT" checklist. The list above is definitely not all inclusive, but just some things to think about that the student MAY NOT have thought about. And it's better if you tell him at airspeed 0 than have him trying to figure it out in the dark at 120 knots.
 
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