aloft
New Member
Newsweek article on what they're calling a "global pilot shortage".
http://www.newsweek.com/id/78116/page/1
http://www.newsweek.com/id/78116/page/1
Newsweek: who will pilot all those planes?
- Thread starter aloft
- Start date
Cruise
Well-Known Member
Great, so the powers-that-be are predicting a pilot shortage overseas. Fine, but I've done a little searching and it would seem most of the airlines are looking for people w/ time-in-type.
So, if you have 1500-2000 TT (w/ 500 hours of A320/ A330/ B747 time), you're golden. :banghead:
So, if you have 1500-2000 TT (w/ 500 hours of A320/ A330/ B747 time), you're golden. :banghead:
bunghole
Well-Known Member
"Airline travel is booming. so why are executives at Philippine Airlines so worried?"
Answer: Uhhh..they havent figured out how to import the fine young men standing in front of Home Depot:bandit: overseas?
Answer: Uhhh..they havent figured out how to import the fine young men standing in front of Home Depot:bandit: overseas?
WCAT1918
New Member
I guess what pisses me off is the fact that Philippines Air and Dragonair, the two airlines mentioned over in Asia, are raising pilot wages significantly in order to attract pilots, yet here in the states NONE of the airlines are doing crap in regards to a surge in pilot wages...and I don't think that part of the world has something as big as ALPA and yet pilots are getting increased wages...:banghead:
flyover
New Member
Even as you ate typing that and banging your head against that wall the time-in-type requirement is disappearing.
Cruise
Well-Known Member
And that's a good thing!
For the record, I am NOT a proponent of the low-timer in a large jet (Airbii/ Boeing).....my conundrum lies with the low time, coupled with the disproportionate time-in-type.
A guy w/ several thousand hours of Turboprop/ RJ time doesn't stand a chance, as it were. That's what has me boggled!
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Uh. . .because maybe the airlines in Asia actually charge an appropriate fair/rate for the seat their customers will be sitting in. They don't utilize their labor overhead as an excuse to say they are not making money. They make money by charging an appropriate fare/rate for the seat the customer purchases. It's not confusing, or even hard to understand.
None of those $300 round trip from Singapore to Hong Kong crap.
The problem with American airlines is that they are too damn weak for their own good. They trip over themselves trying to make a dime, it's ridiculous. It's the American capitalistic way to use labor as the one and only cause for reduced profits. In the end, these companies will come to the realization that even if people worked for free, the service still costs something and they'll still lose money by only charging $300 for Atlanta - Los Angeles / Seattle, or Seattle - New York, or any other long distance round trip ticket.
Quit being ladies, pull your panties up and start charging a fair appropriate for the services provided.
But if they did that, they wouldn't be able to file for bankruptcy every 5 years.
secretapproach
New Member
I find it frustrating that so many pilots espouse this "management is stupid" idea and then give simplistic solutions to very complicated problems, such as ticket pricing. Higher ticket prices don't do much for the bottom line if no one buys them because they're flying the competition for less. Airlines have sophisticated systems for revenue optimization and lots of smart people working on squeezing as many dollars as possible out of every departure. The reason some are having financial difficulty is not the position of their panties.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Don't be so naive.
You honestly think Joe Blow consumer is going to bat an eye at an additional $5, $10, hell $20 for a round trip ticket?
Obviously the position of their panties has little to do with their financial situation. . .it was an attempt at a figure of speech. . .obviously though that went over your head.
Just don't tell me you're one of these pilots who holds an advanced management, business, finance, or economics degree? Of course it would then go against your whole education to actually respect labor and to pay and provide benefits appropriate to their profession.
You honestly think Joe Blow consumer is going to bat an eye at an additional $5, $10, hell $20 for a round trip ticket?
Obviously the position of their panties has little to do with their financial situation. . .it was an attempt at a figure of speech. . .obviously though that went over your head.
Just don't tell me you're one of these pilots who holds an advanced management, business, finance, or economics degree? Of course it would then go against your whole education to actually respect labor and to pay and provide benefits appropriate to their profession.
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
If the competitions prices are $5/10/20 less? Of course.
Lots of rhetoric there from someone not even in the airline biz yet.
Why are pilots so "pilot-jingoistic"???
Cruise
Well-Known Member
I beg to differ....when the prices are within a small range of one another....the consumer will move from cost to service. ie. schedule, actual service provided on flights, etc....
Well, I'm IN the business and I agree w/ Surreal. So there!
BTW, how long have YOU been in the business? Not very long, if I remember correctly.... And what is the predetermined amount of time to qualify as having a valid opinion?
tonyw
Well-Known Member
That used to be the case but with airplanes pretty much full how are you going to go to a competitor? They don't have seats to sell.
They're talking about REDUCING the number of flights that go into a bunch of airports because there's not enough capacity at those airports for the number of planes flying now.
There are 80 percent load factors.
This means what, boys and girls, from economics 101.
Constrained supplies. Rising demand.
What should that yield?
Oh, no, but raising fares would mean you might do something different and innovative and it's just so much easier to do the same thing over and over again and expect different results.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
And?
Everyone has some form of rhetoric.
http://m-w.com/dictionary/rhetoric
Nevertheless Chris - I see you've joined the Experience Police. Sure, I'm not a 121 pilot, so if that means I can't comment on the issues that affect our profession in your mind then tough titties. I'm still going to speak my mind.
You are 100% correct.
Unfortunately it is not PC to admit on a pilot oriented website that airline management (generically) actually understand the business that they operate. Pilots, as a general rule, see management as =the Evil= and it is anathema to admit anything positive about the Borg.
On the one hand it makes sense, because management's goals often conflict with the goals of pilots. Thus it is important for pilots to realize that the guys in suits will often be doing and saying things that act directly to remove money and benefits form our pockets.
On the other hand when we vilify management and denigrate them to the point that we constantly think of them as stupid and unable to think their way out of a paper bag we tend to badly underestimate them. Mistake of the first order.
I know I have already quoted this, but it bears repeating:
"So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will fight without danger in battles.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself." ~ Sun Tzu
To think that simply raising fares would solve an airline's problems is woefully ignorant of the realities of the marketplace. To blatantly accuse airline management of being stupid is to badly underestimate them. There are very smart men at the top of most airlines, and while it is important to remember that they are doing their best to reduce costs (read that as cut pilot wages and benefits), we need to constantly remind ourselves that the enemy is clever and resourceful.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
I'm not sure I can agree with you Steve. These folks might know tons about balance sheets, financial wiz-bangery and how to count beans, but the profit making equation includes us and I think that's what many pilots get pissy about, because we're often looked as simply a cost to be cut when WE are the ones that are on the front line and WILL make or break a companies bottom line. If we get treated poorly by management, as we often do, then the bottom line is going to suffer.
It's frustrating when you have so many type-A folks flying airplanes around that WANT to do things well, but are never given the opportunity, so lashing out at management makes sense. I don't see managers pretty much ever, but with the pay packages they offer and benefits that come with them, they're nothing more than a slap in the face while management pleads for the pilots to do the worst job possible, because Lord knows they're not paid enough to care.
And in a capitalistic society money talks, not simply doing a good job for the sake of a good job. That's a great idea and all, and I won't disagree with the idea behind it (and believe me, I try to go out there and do the best job that I can because I don't want to be a hack at anything), but when guys get beaten down so often, get 50% pay cuts in one year at some carriers, face furlough and the prospect of not being able to feed their families, etc. etc., what do you expect pilots to do but give the absolute bare minimum?
You could say we should have expected it, should have planned for it, blah blah blah. But you know all you have to do is take a drive over to Flint, Saginaw or parts of Detroit to see how much management really cares about their front line employees, and to see how much loyalty managers should be given. If a company will decimate an entire CITY like Flint to save a few bucks, why should we do anything we can to help the company and say to the managers, "Oh, I understand! It's alright! Even though with this set of cutbacks, you can still feed your family and I'm losing my house, it's ok!"
It's not ok, and the erosion of earning potential of the average American is suffering today across the board because of our perceived notion that it's "ok" for the cutbacks to occur because it's simply Adam Smith's invisible hand moving across the economy.
That ideal, and the respect you're talking about for managers, is nothing but a sham and a noose for the average worker (not just pilot) of this country to hang themselves with.
Does all that make sense? It's still kinda early for me and I'm kinda pissy there's nothing to pickup out of open time, but even though the company has no flights for the next two days to use me on they won't release me.
Collusion is against the law.
In 1971 the airlines petitioned the government for an exemption to form an organization to exchange information on labor with the stated purpose of controlling (read that reducing) labor costs. This behind the scenes organization located in Washington D.C. less than 1 mile from the White House has been highly influential and effective forming industry wide strategies to reduce airline labor costs (one of them is to have their members feed the media disinformation about pilot shortages that don't exist, encouraging people to come out of the woodwork to seek pilot employment, preventing a pilot shortage, keeping pay in check..... works like a charm).
www.aircon.org
Underestimating the group on the other side of the bargaining table is the biggest single mistake labor has made over the last 30 years. Continuing to call them (management) idiots will only strengthen their ability to obtain further concessions and allow the slide to continue.
In 1971 the airlines petitioned the government for an exemption to form an organization to exchange information on labor with the stated purpose of controlling (read that reducing) labor costs. This behind the scenes organization located in Washington D.C. less than 1 mile from the White House has been highly influential and effective forming industry wide strategies to reduce airline labor costs (one of them is to have their members feed the media disinformation about pilot shortages that don't exist, encouraging people to come out of the woodwork to seek pilot employment, preventing a pilot shortage, keeping pay in check..... works like a charm).
www.aircon.org
Underestimating the group on the other side of the bargaining table is the biggest single mistake labor has made over the last 30 years. Continuing to call them (management) idiots will only strengthen their ability to obtain further concessions and allow the slide to continue.
RightSeatGirl
KA'PLAH BITCHES!
Some interesting posts here. I think the both of you are right (Jtrain and Steve). There is certainly an over-abundance of disdain towards industry management coupled with a high level of ignorance regarding the complexity of the industry's economics among flight crews. And all that leads to a lot of sophistry and mud slinging. But I also think that there is indeed a good deal of mismanagement happening as well.
The problem as I see it is that there is an ever growing division between management and the operations side of an airline. Two decades ago many in management started out flying the line, wrenching on engines, or tossing bags. Now we see people coming starting out of business school going into management without any true understanding of actual conditions on the ops side of the fence. And those people, have nothing but spread sheets to fall back on to give them a model to base how to steer an airline with. And big surprise...it isn't working!
The problem as I see it is that there is an ever growing division between management and the operations side of an airline. Two decades ago many in management started out flying the line, wrenching on engines, or tossing bags. Now we see people coming starting out of business school going into management without any true understanding of actual conditions on the ops side of the fence. And those people, have nothing but spread sheets to fall back on to give them a model to base how to steer an airline with. And big surprise...it isn't working!
