New FAA strategy... Maybe?

Then I think you're the one taking the discussion too personally. Chill. You just disagree.
How so? I've said, and even you wrote, that the in the world of part 91 especially, one should deal with the FAA very cautiously. Again, I don't disagree with anything except that one should approach the FAA assuming they are there to help. Doing so puts your pocket book and certificates at risk. Do you want me to go back and quote the part where you talk about speeding tickets and dealing with police? That is how one should deal with the FAA unless you have ASAP and ALPA backing you.
 
This is where we disagree. ASAP is one thing, but if you're dealing with the FAA outside of that program, and enforcement action is even the smallest possibility, lawyer up and quick. I don't care how touchy feely they get, you're still better off with an attorney. I'm reminded of traffic tickets, where people frequently say the same thing: "just be nice to the cop, admit that you might have been speeding, and ask for a warning." Yes, that will probably work 75% of the time. The other 25% of the time you end up with a ticket, and you've admitted guilt so you can't fight it. Me? I never admit to anything, refuse to answer questions, but still be polite. I get tickets, but my lawyer gets them thrown out, and my record is completely clean. Dealing with the FAA is the same, only with much higher stakes.
 
This is where we disagree. ASAP is one thing, but if you're dealing with the FAA outside of that program, and enforcement action is even the smallest possibility, lawyer up and quick. I don't care how touchy feely they get, you're still better off with an attorney. I'm reminded of traffic tickets, where people frequently say the same thing: "just be nice to the cop, admit that you might have been speeding, and ask for a warning." Yes, that will probably work 75% of the time. The other 25% of the time you end up with a ticket, and you've admitted guilt so you can't fight it. Me? I never admit to anything, refuse to answer questions, but still be polite. I get tickets, but my lawyer gets them thrown out, and my record is completely clean. Dealing with the FAA is the same, only with much higher stakes.
 
Blackhawk said:
How so? I've said, and even you wrote, that the in the world of part 91 especially, one should deal with the FAA very cautiously. Again, I don't disagree with anything except that one should approach the FAA assuming they are there to help. Doing so puts your pocket book and certificates at risk. Do you want me to go back and quote the part where you talk about speeding tickets and dealing with police? That is how one should deal with the FAA unless you have ASAP and ALPA backing you.

He's willing to walk away and wish you well, but you keep badgering the man. Don't you see that?

What the hell is going on when I have to be the voice of civility?! :)
 
He's willing to walk away and wish you well, but you keep badgering the man. Don't you see that?

What the hell is going on when I have to be the voice of civility?! :)
Actually he keeps jumping in and acting like he has been wronged, like each post I write is a personal attack. His quip about "good luck in your endeavors" was hardly walking away. Even someone else quipped that I had better not apply to JetBlue.
I have never written anything that attacked him. I merely pointed out and gave specific examples of where treating the FAA like they were some friend of yours could really get you burned. Are you seriously saying that if an FAA inspector came up to you after landing your Mooney in Las Vegas and wanted to talk to you that you would just open up to him/her??? Sorry, but unless ASAP or ALPA is backing me or I have legal representation I'm not saying diddly to the FAA. Would you?
 
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Blackhawk said:
Actually he keeps jumping in and acting like he has been wronged, like each post I write is a personal attack. His quip about "good luck in your endeavors" was hardly walking away.

I'm pretty sure that it was. You misinterpreted it.

Are you seriously saying that if an FAA inspector came up to you after landing your Mooney in Las Vegas and wanted to talk to you that you would just open up to him/her??? Sorry, but unless ASAP or ALPA is backing me I'm not saying diddly to the FAA. Would you?

Pretty sure that I was clearly saying that you should lawyer up to be safe. But that doesn't invalidate the new direction that the agency is taking.
 
I'm pretty sure that it was. You misinterpreted it.



Pretty sure that I was clearly saying that you should lawyer up to be safe. But that doesn't invalidate the new direction that the agency is taking.
And that was my primary point. I really don't care what smiley face has been painted on the FAA, what new memo has been put out, until I see years of change I am going to recommend to any pilot that if the FAA approaches them about anything other than the sports scores that they have some sort of legal representation, either through ASAP, ALPA or a personal lawyer. Would you really recommend that a 121 pilot talk to the FAA about a potential certification issue outside of ASAP without an ALPA legal rep at their side just because some dude on Jet Careers said the new FAA was kinder and gentler? I sure wouldn't.
 
Blackhawk said:
And that was my primary point. I really don't care what smiley face has been painted on the FAA, what new memo has been put out, until I see years of change I am going to recommend to any pilot that if the FAA approaches them about anything other than the sports scores that they have some sort of legal representation, either through ASAP, ALPA or a personal lawyer. Would you really recommend that a 121 pilot talk to the FAA about a potential certification issue outside of ASAP without an ALPA legal rep at their side just because some dude on Jet Careers said the new FAA was kinder and gentler? I sure wouldn't.

For the third time, no. :)
 
This is quoted from the FAA Compliance Action Decision Process that I posted a link to above.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't seek advice or counsel, and the document even says seeking counsel doesn't rule out the new compliance philosophy, in blue below. That being said, if you read the decision tree document, it is very clear that the level of cooperation is taken into account during their decision process (See the item 3b, in red below). Our pilots this week were very cooperative, but they had ALPA representation present during the debrief. I feel that this sort of wholesale change to the investigation process deserves discussion here, and that is why I've been so vocal on this thread.

I recommend that everyone take a deep look at the documents linked above, and even contact your local FSDO for clarification if you like. This is not a minor change, and it has very real implications for you should you have an issue.

And with that, I'm out. If anyone wants to talk about it further, send me a private message.

Oh, and by the way, my "Good luck with your endeavors" meant exactly that. Good luck. I don't know what your endeavors are, and I don't care. It was supposed to be a very clear signal that I'm done with the conversation, and nothing more.



14-1-2-7 PROCEDURES (I skipped 1 and 2, and started with 3 below)

3) Analyze the Event.
a) Critical thinking involving careful, objective analysis is the key to understanding the event. Analysis of each event should focus on determining the nature of the problem, the conditions under which it occurred, the controls that failed and may again in the future, and the most effective proposed corrective
action(s).
b) Before deciding on Compliance Action as the mitigation, determine if the airman/organization is proactive, cooperative, and capable of participating in effective corrective or preventive action. An inability to comply requires a more formal process of correction.

NOTE: An entity’s refusal to speak with the FAA, or the obtaining of legal counsel immediately after an event, does not automatically rule out Compliance Action. Airmen and organizations are free to exercise their rights without repercussions. An entity that complies with FAA requirements to regain and maintain compliance is considered cooperative. However, if the ASI cannot adequately determine the facts of the case, or cannot identify appropriate remediation(s) that are consented to and successfully accomplished by the involved parties, the ASI must still use due diligence on behalf of the public’s safety interest. Such due diligence may include reexamination or suspension pending compliance to determine that the certificated entity is qualified, competent, and proficient.

c) Determination must be based reasonably on observable behaviors and the facts and circumstances in each case.
1. Does the airman/organization consistently perform in a positive manner toward regulatory requirements?

2. Does the airman/organization understand or recognize its role in the deviation?

3. Does the airman/organization cooperate with FAA personnel to achieve compliance?

4. Does the airman/organization take the necessary actions to come into and maintain compliance?

5. Are there repeated failures to take corrective actions or repeated deviations?

6. Is the airman/organization noncompliant in more than one area? Does it involve multiple personnel?
 
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From my experience, compared to the MIA (SEFL) FSDO, this article makes the MCI FSDO seem like a bunch of cookie-selling scouts! I'll use the word "corrupt" only because I can't find one to exactly describe by personal interaction and disdain for the reps at MIA.
 
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