New CFI, CFII, have a question for IPC..

W

willpilot

Well-Known Member
I'm looking to give a friend of mine his IPC. The thing is I don't have a high performance endorsement. He has a 206 from this guy who only lets him fly the plane. So my question is can i give him the IPC in that high performance plane , when I myself don't have the endorsement. I was trying to look it up .. I know if i'm in the right seat its dual but also pic right ? any help would be appreciated thanks..
 
Prior to the October 2009 Part 61 amendments, the general view was that while technically ok to instruct and log PIC without the endorsements required to act as PIC (so long as the pilot was capable of and did act as PIC), it was generally a bad idea since, if nothing else, if something happened, answering the FAA's "What the heck made you think you were qualified to teach/evaluate/recover from errors made by that pilot" would be a lot of fun for others to watch. As I recall, there was even a blurb in the orphaned Part 61 FAQ that came down to "what, are you crazy? Of course you can't!"

The October 2009 amendment, among other things, made an interesting change to the logging of PIC by CFIs. It not at least requires that the CFI be "rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft." Now whether or not that's simply the flip side of the change in 61.195 that requires that a CFI has appropriate aircraft ratings for any type of instruction or a signal of something more sinister in the works, I haven't a clue. "rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft" is a very weird turn of phrase and I haven't looked at the Final Rule explanatory material for clues as to what it means.

But, without expressing any opinion at all on whether it's legal or not, FWIW, I'd stick with my personal rule about not teaching in something I'm not qualified to fly myself.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
The October 2009 amendment, among other things, made an interesting change to the logging of PIC by CFIs. It not at least requires that the CFI be "rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft." Now whether or not that's simply the flip side of the change in 61.195 that requires that a CFI has appropriate aircraft ratings for any type of instruction or a signal of something more sinister in the works, I haven't a clue. "rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft" is a very weird turn of phrase and I haven't looked at the Final Rule explanatory material for clues as to what it means.
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The current way 61.195 is written makes no specification that a CFI must be "rated to act as pilot in command" of the aircraft. All it says is:

A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and
(2) If appropriate, a type rating

So, legally, you should be able to instruct in the plane if you've got a single engine land commercial ticket and a CFI-ASE (Airplane Single Engine) ticket. From a safety standpoint, I'd have to be very familiar with the other pilot before undertaking the described situation. I wouldn't be flat against it, but I'd have to have seen that the guy can fly the plane competently.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
The current way 61.195 is written makes no specification that a CFI must be "rated to act as pilot in command" of the aircraft.
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Didn't say it did. It does say that the CFI needs to have the applicale category and class ratings. I said that "rated to be pilot in command" was part of the amendment to the CFI logging PIC rule.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Didn't say it did. It does say that the CFI needs to have the applicale category and class ratings. I said that "rated to be pilot in command" was part of the amendment to the CFI logging PIC rule.
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Where does it say that? The only thing I found in 61.51 about CFI logging PIC time is the following 61.51(e).

A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.
 
thanks alot for the info guys yall been a big help ... Thats the only thing i'm thinking of now, is if I can log the PIC..
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Where does it say that? The only thing I found in 61.51 about CFI logging PIC time is the following 61.51(e).

A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.
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Sorry, I misquoted te reg and myself: "rated to act" not "rated to be." There's a difference? I used the correct phrase earlier.

Bottom line: I don't have the confidence you do with the answer you gave. Which is why I didn't give it.
 
nosehair said:
So he can do the IPC, but just cannot log the time as PIC.
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That's not even clear. The use of the term "rated" means no endorsements are necessary (for the uinitiated, not you, an "endorsement" is not a "rating"), but the phrase "to act as pilot in command" suggests that they are since one is not permitted to act as PIC without endorsements.

It's almost a non-sequitur.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Sorry, I misquoted te reg and myself: "rated to act" not "rated to be." There's a difference? I used the correct phrase earlier.

Bottom line: I don't have the confidence you do with the answer you gave. Which is why I didn't give it.
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I'm not trying to argue with you, but I just don't see the rated to act as PIC in the regulations. You still haven't showed where that is in the regulations. I looked and couldn't find it. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place? :dunno:
 
Got this in a email from another instructor....


have a quick question I can't seem to get answered.. I have a pilot wanting an IPC in his Aero Commander.. I have a total of 5 hours in a commander and am not sure if I can, as a CFII without and MEI, give him the IPC.. Hope I am making sense.. First I want to be sure the guy is safe and legal.. Then, I want to make sure I am legal. Not worth the hassle when he can get another instructor. But, if I can I would like to help.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
I'm not trying to argue with you, but I just don't see the rated to act as PIC in the regulations. You still haven't showed where that is in the regulations. I looked and couldn't find it. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place? :dunno:
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? You quoted it earlier:
The only thing I found in 61.51 about CFI logging PIC time is the following 61.51(e).

A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.
Click to expand...
Maybe you need to re-read my post:
The October 2009 amendment, among other things, made an interesting change to the logging of PIC by CFIs. It not at least requires that the CFI be "rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft." Now whether or not that's simply the flip side of the change in 61.195 that requires that a CFI has appropriate aircraft ratings for any type of instruction or a signal of something more sinister in the works, I haven't a clue. "rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft" is a very weird turn of phrase and I haven't looked at the Final Rule explanatory material for clues as to what it means.
Click to expand...
 
You're a CFI, just give yourself the endorsement. ;)

Seriously, Midlife's rule of don't do it unless you are qualified yourself, is typically always the best route to take. Err on the side of safety. This sounds like a "blind leading the blind" kind of deal. If you aren't qualified, how can you be giving proper advice? Granted, the only difference is a high-performance endorsement, if you technically aren't qualified, who are you to say he is?
 
well this friend of mine called up the FAA in oklahoma city , he knows him personally. Asked him the same question and he said I could do the IPC, log it as dual but not PIC.. He said it would count towards total time. But not pic time !!..
 
willpilot said:
well this friend of mine called up the FAA in oklahoma city , he knows him personally. Asked him the same question and he said I could do the IPC, log it as dual but not PIC.. He said it would count towards total time. But not pic time !!..
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Call another FAA inspector and you'll get another answer.

Ever watch two FAA inspectors argue during an investigation about whether someone's conduct broke a reg?
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Call another FAA inspector and you'll get another answer.

Ever watch two FAA inspectors argue during an investigation about whether someone's conduct broke a reg?
Click to expand...

I sent a CFI applicant for a checkride. Got a call from the inspector asking what was this garbage about signing off the applicant's flight review after the checkride. He insisted the CFI checkride counted as a flight review... until I had him pull up the letter on his computer. He had never heard of that LOI.
 
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