New at Flight Safety Academy

either way your taking away a job from somebody if you view it that way. at fsi, your taking away a job from a more qualified applicant (flight experience, not technical apptitued, or interviewing skills), who doesn't have the 25k to pay. sure, the gulfstream guys aren't guranteed a job, but those guys are being picked up by other regionals, ie. colgan,pinnacle, etc. i agree with you to each his own. the way i look at it, these airlines who participate in these "bridge programs" are just authorizing fsi to sell X amount of jobs per month. the only catch is the airline has to approve of the buyer first. (interview process). just because these guys can get through an interview and sim ride doesn't make them qualified IMHO. they don't have the real world experience that others do who have aquired much of their time instructing, flying xc, cargo, bad weather, etc. but i guess it doesn't really matter because these guys are going to be FO's forever anyway. the airline knows it and by the time they are ready to upgrade they'll be more than ready. personally, i really couldn't care less but if your the type to bash on pft programs you should bash on all of them.
 
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just because these guys can get through an interview and sim ride doesn't make them qualified IMHO. they don't have the real world experience that others do who have aquired much of their time instructing, flying xc, cargo, bad weather, etc.

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I can't really comment but interesting statement......
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I had the opportunity to ask an airline pilot about this program and posed to him the same scenarios. His reply was to do it if you had the opportunity....another 800-1000 hours teaching pattern work and lazy 8's in 152/172's is in no way going to make you any more qualified to fly an RJ.

Just trying to present the other side of the argument...
 
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FSI sp PFT ASA AE ILS ERJ FMS IFR/LOFT VFR

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Ahh!!!!!!!!! My head is begining to hurt from so many abreviations. Can someone be so kind as to explain what all of them mean?????
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Would be very helpfull, thank you in advance.
 
Alright, I have a few questions. Who all has interviewed for AE or ASA yet. What kind of interview is it. Do you have a sim ride? Does AE and ASA still come down to Vero to conduct the interviews? When will the first ASA and AE class start? is it still $26K? How is the interest on the FSI campus? Are a lot of SP's looking into doing this program. I can't imagine that they are going to find 20 a month who are willing to pay 26K though.
 
FSI - Flight Safety International
PFT - Pay for training
ASA - Atlantic Southeast Airlines
AE - American Eagle
ILS - Instrument landing system
ERJ - Embraer Regional Jet
IFR - Instument Flight Rules
VFR - Visual Flight Rules
LOFT - Line oriented flight training
FMS - Flight managment system
 
Hollywood,

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either way your taking away a job from somebody if you view it that way. at fsi, your taking away a job from a more qualified applicant (flight experience, not technical apptitued, or interviewing skills), who doesn't have the 25k to pay.

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One thing you need to remember is that it is the airline who decides who is most qualified for the pilot slot and it is the airline who decides what the minimum hour requirements will be (OK sometimes the insurance company). I personally know 1200+ hour CFI'S in the Phoenix area that I would not get into a cessna with, let alone have them fly my family and I around on vacation. Just because someone put in there time running back and forth to the practice area for 1000 hours in a single, that does not mean they are qualified or MORE qualified than the 400 hour pilot that went through the advanced training.

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these airlines who participate in these "bridge programs" are just authorizing fsi to sell X amount of jobs per month. the only catch is the airline has to approve of the buyer first.

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Ignorant Statement...Do you honestly think that the airline gives a rats a$$ if FSI makes a profit from this? I mean why else would they help FSI "sell jobs"? It has been proven that these pilots that go through the program are at the proficiency level far above the entry level pilot that "just meets the mins". If you do not beleive me then call ASA yourself and ask how FSA'S AATP (Advanced Airline Training Program) students do COMPARED to the entry level pilot from the street with 1200/200. They will tell you that the FSA students most often do better in Indoc than the others. Why do you think that is?

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just because these guys can get through an interview and sim ride doesn't make them qualified IMHO. they don't have the real world experience that others do who have aquired much of their time instructing

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These guys and gals
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spent their first 350 hours doing shorts, softs, XC's, flying approaches, landing, pre-private maneuvers, commercial maneuvers, entering and exiting traffic patterns etc. I certainly hope that they have that stuff down by 350. I do not think that you need to "SIT" next to a pre-private for another 1000 hours to make sure you did not miss anything in the first 350 hours (unless you did miss everything and SLIPPED through the cracks on the checkrides). Most CFI's at "most" schools get mostly pre-private time. This is not beneficial if you are airline bound. Those are simply "empty" hours in your logbook. "IF" you happen to have mostly instrument students, then that is beneficial. Remember, you are not the sole manipulator of the controls 99% of the time, your student is. Heck, you are struggling to stay current yourself and are begging the student for the next landing to put in your own logbook.

To sum it up...these pilots are very well prepared. Four of the guys who went through the ASA program at FSA are friends of mine. I would put them up against any of your 1200 CFI friends any day. As a matter of fact I would rather put one of these 400 pilots up against you on knowledge, flight, and in a level D SIM. Of course I am assuming that you are a CFI building time that is pissed because you either cannot afford the $22,500 for such a program or maybe you simply do not want to borrow it like some have chosen to do.

Either way, do not worry, they did not "bump" you out of a pilot slot. You will alway's have Hollywood...

No hard feelings...Just my .02
ILS
 
One more thing Hollywood...

If the airlines were hiring now at 400-500 hours like some were pre-9/11. Would you tell them...No I am sorry I cannot fly for you now, I am not quite proficient enough? Let me re-submit my resume when I get to 1200 hours.

I think not. I know a few people that were hired at 450 hours and said C-ya to those steep turns with a big smile. Do you think the airline would have put them online if they were not ready at 450? Hey, they passed the ride and knowledge test right?

Just a thought...ILS
 
CLR4ILS- i still haven't figured out how to use the quotes right on here so i'm just going from memory. First off, your right, i do not have an extra 22k to spend on something as ridiculous as that.(i thought it was up around 27k). if i did, i would be spending it on booze and [expletive deleted], not paying for a job. secondly, i wish these guys all the best. i don't think they are "bumping" me out of a job nor am i disgruntled about the situation. let me ask you this. do you think ASA or whatever airline is doing this is hurting for well qualified, good pilots to fill their needs. to the point they have to basically hire people with wet commercial licenses? i really can't see the director of pilot recruitment calling up fsi and saying " geez, these 3500hr applicants aren't as sharp as your 350hr students. let's work something out." if so, why is it necessary to have these guys pay fsi a butt load of money for all this extra training before they go through the normal training that everyone goes through. the 1200 hr cfi applicants that spent all their time flying around in the pattern don't do this. and they are no more qualified to fly the ERJ than the fsi guy/gal. why not award the fsi instructors (of fsi choosing) interviews at extremely reduced minimums? if they make it through the process, they join everyone else online? all free of charge. if they washout, they go back to having an excellent cfi gig with an excellent school for a little while longer. i know a few guys who were hired on in the pre 911 "glory days" with low time. but they had a lot more than 400 hrs and they didn't ahve to pay for anything. in those times the airlines were hurting for pilots. they wouldn't get to many applicants if everyone had to pay 20k+ for a 20k/yr job. and to answer your question, if it were me back then with 400 hrs and they told me in the interview i had to pay 20K- i would say "i'm not qualified to fly with you right now, i'll reapply when i meet your normal minimums and save the 20k". whether or not the airline gets money from fsi, i have no idea. i doubt anyone on this board does. i highly doubt that either party would admit to it if that were the case. i will say that if the airline truly doesn't take a percentage of that money, they are stupid.
and by the way, there are no hard feelings. i just feel these type of programs may have negative effects for all of us. sure they are only taking 10/ month or whatever from fsi now, but what's to stop them from taking 50,60,70, all? now we have a situation where airline X only hires fsi "bridge program" grads for FO positions. sure they'll hire a few off the street so they have people who will be eligible for upgrades within the century but only enough to cover their asses. you have to admit, from a business stand point it's a good idea. hire all these fsi grads, get kickbacks from fsi because you only hire their students. granted this is an extremem situation but everything has a start.
personally, if my family is on board, i'd rather have the FO who flew boxes in a beat up 310 in the middle of the night in and out of bad weather by himself shooting approaches down to minimums. as opposed to the guy that got his shot by having a rich family or a large credit line and who's idea of shooting an approach is removing the foggles 50ft above minimums. Seacrest OUT!
 
one more thing, you can put your "bridge program graduate" buddies that bought their jobs up against me any day. maybe they are better pilots. BUT, i bet my dad can beat their dads up.
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Seacrest OUT!.... again
 
Hollywood,

I don't have much time so here it goes...

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First off, your right, i do not have an extra 22k to spend on something as ridiculous as that.(i thought it was up around 27k). if i did, i would be spending it on booze and [expletive deleted],

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Cool man...Let me know who you get hired with so I can avoid the airline.

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i really can't see the director of pilot recruitment calling up fsi and saying " geez, these 3500hr applicants aren't as sharp as your 350hr students. let's work something out

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yes, the 3500 hour pilot has more experience and is more proficient than the 400 hour pilot (I hope) BUT, what happens to the 3500 hour pilot a few months after the regional hires him and he gets that call from Delta or UPS? HE LEAVES....and the regional is out the indoc training $$$$ and looking for a replacement. This is why it makes more sense to hire the low time guy and that is why they do it.

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why is it necessary to have these guys pay fsi a butt load of money for all this extra training before they go through the normal training that everyone goes through. the 1200 hr cfi applicants that spent all their time flying around in the pattern don't do this. and they are no more qualified to fly the ERJ than the fsi guy/gal.

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Hence, the word ADVANCED in the title of the training program. These guys are not buying a job. They can still wash out of Indoc like everyone else. They never have, but it could happen. that is the chance the student takes when he pays for the advanced training. These AATP students are doing far better than the new hires from the street in Indoc. Think about it...they just recieved training on all of the same advanced systems and advanced IFR LOFT. When they get to Indoc nothing is new to them like it is to the CFI or who ever from the outside. When the 1200 hour CFI and the AATP pilot both get to Indoc, the AATP pilot can sit in that CRJ SIM day 1 and fly it well. his training in Indoc is almost like a refresher.

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why not award the fsi instructors (of fsi choosing) interviews at extremely reduced minimums?

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FSA Instructors get interviews all the time with several regionals below mins...Didn't you know? We are Flight Safety Man...
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i know a few guys who were hired on in the pre 911 "glory days" with low time. but they had a lot more than 400 hrs and they didn't ahve to pay for anything. in those times the airlines were hurting for pilots.

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The guys I am talking about were hired at around 450 and they didn't do a program or pay anyone. A couple of them were FSA guys and I think they went to Chicago Express.

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whether or not the airline gets money from fsi, i have no idea. i doubt anyone on this board does. i highly doubt that either party would admit to it if that were the case. i will say that if the airline truly doesn't take a percentage of that money, they are stupid.


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I must say..another poor choice in statements. The ONLY people that see the $22,500 is FSA and trust me most of that is sucked up in the SAAB level D. The airlines are public companies which means if they were recieving $$$ then it would definately be public knowledge. I wish you could speak with the VP of ASA. It is a proven program that produces proficient pilots. They like the quality of pilots Flight Safety is producing.

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what's to stop them from taking 50,60,70, all? now we have a situation where airline X only hires fsi "bridge program" grads for FO positions. sure they'll hire a few off the street so they have people who will be eligible for upgrades within the century but only enough to cover their asses. you have to admit, from a business stand point it's a good idea

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Never Happen...

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hire all these fsi grads, get kickbacks from fsi because you only hire their students. granted this is an extremem situation but everything has a start.


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Doesn't happen and won't...

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personally, if my family is on board, i'd rather have the FO who flew boxes in a beat up 310 in the middle of the night in and out of bad weather by himself shooting approaches down to minimums. as opposed to the guy that got his shot by having a rich family or a large credit line and who's idea of shooting an approach is removing the foggles 50ft above minimums.

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The guy flying freight? MAYBE...was it mail or freight??? if it is mail then no way, those guys are a coffin waiting to happen. Alot of bad habits picked up flying those mail buckets at night

I am not rich. In fact, far from it. I do have good credit, which means I have the opportunity to do any program I want. I wish i came from a rich snobby family. I wouldn't have all of these flight loans.

As far as the foggles comment. Come on down to FSA and fly down to mins with some of our low time pilots. They are pretty damn good. remember, Flight Safetys area of expertise is multi-engine instrument training. Do not doubt it for a minute.

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Seacrest OUT!

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Seacrest is a geek. so i guess you could say...Geek out!

Good Times...ILS
 
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The guy flying freight? MAYBE...was it mail or freight??? if it is mail then no way, those guys are a coffin waiting to happen. Alot of bad habits picked up flying those mail buckets at night


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Now you've got my curiosity up. Who are the mail haulers you're talkin' about? Maybe I need to stay away from that stuff, you think?
 
i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. i don't feel like responding to this anymore. those "mail haulers" will fly circles around your 300hr pilots with "level D sim time". that would never be put to the test because your guys aren't qualified to fly mail. go over to flightinfo.com and post your comment about those guys being a coffin waiting to happen or whatever you said. Fly safe- Geek Out!
 
I have met and talked to a couple of those "mail haulers" in the Seattle area. When I said they are a coffin waiting to happen, it is because these guys were breaking every rule and every FAR known to man. These guys admitted it and thought it was funny. They were constantly in trouble for violating airport procedures etc. Do they all fly like idiots because they think "oh well" it is 1:00 am who will see me land on the wrong runway because I am on a time schedule and want to land on the one closest to the mail drop/pickup point. These two I met were UNSAFE and I have no respect for unsafe pilots. I am sure they are not all that way...Enough said

Time to put this thread to bed...ILS
 
He lives. Chunk where you been? Things going well? How are those twins doing? Good to hear from ya...ILS
 
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The guy flying freight? MAYBE...was it mail or freight??? if it is mail then no way, those guys are a coffin waiting to happen. Alot of bad habits picked up flying those mail buckets at night


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I have met and talked to a couple of those "mail haulers" in the Seattle area. When I said they are a coffin waiting to happen, it is because these guys were breaking every rule and every FAR known to man. These guys admitted it and thought it was funny. They were constantly in trouble for violating airport procedures etc. Do they all fly like idiots because they think "oh well" it is 1:00 am who will see me land on the wrong runway because I am on a time schedule and want to land on the one closest to the mail drop/pickup point. These two I met were UNSAFE and I have no respect for unsafe pilots. I am sure they are not all that way...Enough said

Time to put this thread to bed...ILS

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I'd say you're painting with an awfully broad brush, considering you've only met and talked to a couple of those "mail haulers".

Oh yeah, I guess I should give you a little bit of credit for back-tracking on the second post: "I am sure they are not all that way...."
That must make up for: "if it is mail then no way, those guys are a coffin waiting to happen. Alot of bad habits picked up flying those mail buckets at night"

Hmmmm.........
 
ILS- have you done ANY flying since I last saw you doing your CFII at FSI? Or have you been just sitting around waiting to plunk down $22k? I'm guessing very little, because if you had, you wouldn't be doing this thing- you'd already be close to regional mins, as that was well over a year ago. But...why gain experience the hard way when you can buy it the easy way.

Go fly in the real world once, and then come back and talk.

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Time to put this thread to bed...ILS

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Yeah, quite obviously you want the thread to end. You made a stupid statement, and can't stand by it.
 
EATSLEEP,
First of all, who said I was doing the program? Do I beleive in the program and Flight Safety's ability to take these pilots from low time to a CRJ? Yes I do. As a Flight safety grad and instructor I would sure think you would too.

As for the "real world" flying. You have no idea what flying I have done. Maybe you could define it for us.

Is it:
1)Time building?

OR

2)Maybe something like, flying a twin (Seminole) from Seattle down to California and back, flying almost every approach down to mins with low visibility?

If you answered #2 then you have identified just a little bit of some of the flying I have done. So do not jump someone and try to belittle them until you know what you are talking about.

As for the stupid statement...I will assume you are talking about the "mail Haulers". I will admit that it was broad and did stereo type the job. It was late when that came out. The guys in question actually flew bad checks around at night. According to all of my CFI and pilot friends in the Seattle area, these guys play by no rules and as a result there have been many fatalities. The ones I met at the local airport bragged about their cowboy ways.

The statement was general and yes, I do appologize to any of you "nice flying" bad check haulers.

Good times...ILS
 
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