NetJets and Flight Options Salaries.......
- Thread starter jonnyb
- Start date
music
New Member
Great post there is a lot of information here.
Looks like some companies are trying to get away with a fast one. I dont think that can last though.
You notice how many people here say things like... "No way I can live off that" or "I quit" etc. I know there are plenty of guys that will take the crappy pay jobs but eventually.... The well has to dry up... Not at the expense of training and college. There are sooooo many careers in this day and age to make a handsome living. Eventually people will just not sign up.
Looks like some companies are trying to get away with a fast one. I dont think that can last though.
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
First off, this post isn't intended to offend anyone (NJA_Capt. etc.). It is intended to get information out in the open and to help determine why these professionals are willing to work for these salaries.
[/ QUOTE ]
No offense taken, OK maybe a little
Not sure why you thought this needs to be in the open...again. It's been out in the open and totally public info for 7 years. I imagine that it was sparked this time by Pro Pilot magazine's annual survey. Which, you noticed did NOT include fractional pay in with corporate pay. They are in separate categories.
We have been hearing the rhetoric about "dragging down the industry" for way too long. As stated before, we know it's low and we ARE doing something about it.
Some other things to consider are these. It was mentioned above that the people being hired are NOT low timers and are NOT inexperienced pilots. If the conditions were as terrible as "non-employees" profess, don't you think these "professional" pilots would turn down such poor conditions? Must be other factors, hmmm?
For the "dragging down the salary" activists: According to NBAA (National Business Aviation Assoc), there are over 10,000+ companies operating turbine business aircraft in the US alone. Together they operated over 15,000 turbine fixed wing aircraft. How is it possible that 2 fractionals drag down the average of 10,000 other operators? In 2003, there were 287,000 commercial and ATP pilots. 1800 ATP rated pilots are at NJA. That's approx .64% of the pro pilot population.That's like saying your son's piggy bank money drags down your savings account.
According to the FAA, "nearly 35,000 general aviation aircraft are utilized primarily for business and corporate missions." How does 776+ fractional aircraft change the average of 34,224 other aircraft? 2.2% of 34000 ? If a corporate flight department is basing it's salary on the bottom .04% (big 4 fracs/10,000) of other operators, it's a pretty poor dept to start with.
Fractionals should claim it's the corporate dragging us down. No restrictions on duty times (we do), no restrictions on rest time (we do), Paying by flight our and requiring you to sit 9 hours in the FBO (we don't). 24 hour standby. No/few scheduled days off. In house training, poor maint, etc...all things to look forward to in the private world....not. I made more money flying freight in a SEL piston than I did flying Charter in turboprops. I have friends that are at multi plane NBAA departments who make more than I do and are terribly UNhappy. Yes, they are home 25+ nights per month. The problem is they don't know when they are working or not, and can't plan anything beyond today. I'd rather get my 7 days of work out of the way and stay home. The three 21 day vacations each year are a nice plus too. What about the freight operators that pay squat and require you to be gone 2-3 WEEKS straight?
Falcon Capt and others will say there ARE good corp departments out there, and that is 100% true. However, how many of those 16,000 turbine aircraft are in those GOOD departments? My guess is less than 20%.
PS...I didn't include the 6411 charter operators. So with the big 4 fractionals are .024% of 16,411 Corp/charter operators.
http://www.nbaa.org/@@QBJEElW4LAES/factbook/2003/section4.htm
First off, this post isn't intended to offend anyone (NJA_Capt. etc.). It is intended to get information out in the open and to help determine why these professionals are willing to work for these salaries.
[/ QUOTE ]
No offense taken, OK maybe a little
Not sure why you thought this needs to be in the open...again. It's been out in the open and totally public info for 7 years. I imagine that it was sparked this time by Pro Pilot magazine's annual survey. Which, you noticed did NOT include fractional pay in with corporate pay. They are in separate categories.
We have been hearing the rhetoric about "dragging down the industry" for way too long. As stated before, we know it's low and we ARE doing something about it.
Some other things to consider are these. It was mentioned above that the people being hired are NOT low timers and are NOT inexperienced pilots. If the conditions were as terrible as "non-employees" profess, don't you think these "professional" pilots would turn down such poor conditions? Must be other factors, hmmm?
For the "dragging down the salary" activists: According to NBAA (National Business Aviation Assoc), there are over 10,000+ companies operating turbine business aircraft in the US alone. Together they operated over 15,000 turbine fixed wing aircraft. How is it possible that 2 fractionals drag down the average of 10,000 other operators? In 2003, there were 287,000 commercial and ATP pilots. 1800 ATP rated pilots are at NJA. That's approx .64% of the pro pilot population.That's like saying your son's piggy bank money drags down your savings account.
According to the FAA, "nearly 35,000 general aviation aircraft are utilized primarily for business and corporate missions." How does 776+ fractional aircraft change the average of 34,224 other aircraft? 2.2% of 34000 ? If a corporate flight department is basing it's salary on the bottom .04% (big 4 fracs/10,000) of other operators, it's a pretty poor dept to start with.
Fractionals should claim it's the corporate dragging us down. No restrictions on duty times (we do), no restrictions on rest time (we do), Paying by flight our and requiring you to sit 9 hours in the FBO (we don't). 24 hour standby. No/few scheduled days off. In house training, poor maint, etc...all things to look forward to in the private world....not. I made more money flying freight in a SEL piston than I did flying Charter in turboprops. I have friends that are at multi plane NBAA departments who make more than I do and are terribly UNhappy. Yes, they are home 25+ nights per month. The problem is they don't know when they are working or not, and can't plan anything beyond today. I'd rather get my 7 days of work out of the way and stay home. The three 21 day vacations each year are a nice plus too. What about the freight operators that pay squat and require you to be gone 2-3 WEEKS straight?
Falcon Capt and others will say there ARE good corp departments out there, and that is 100% true. However, how many of those 16,000 turbine aircraft are in those GOOD departments? My guess is less than 20%.
PS...I didn't include the 6411 charter operators. So with the big 4 fractionals are .024% of 16,411 Corp/charter operators.
http://www.nbaa.org/@@QBJEElW4LAES/factbook/2003/section4.htm
jonnyb
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply man. The reason for bringing it up AGAIN is exactly what you said. The ProPilot Mag report.
You make some good points, as usual. You kinda went off the focal point a little though. My post and concern has nothing to do with your quality of life, training, vacation etc.
My concern is simply the salary. The salary accepted by pilots of the largest fractional in the world! The name everyone knows! It makes absolutely no difference what share of the market your company makes up. The fact that everyone knows NetJets is all that matters. Come on man, I can't believe you even brought up all those statistics. For what? Everyone knows perseption IS reality. So, my point is, you are a Captain of one of the most Technologicly advanced airplanes in the world and you work for substancially less than most others in your position. Not to mention, it's been this way for a long period of time!
I know you're union is "trying" and "working" on a better contract and that's great. My concern is now, not when it gets better. It's been bad for a long time and it's getting old to see the same old report every year. What I really want to say, without sounding like too much of a jerk is: "Take some pride in what you do, DEMAND change."
Everytime I talk with one of you guys/gals around the country, I'm very delighted and impressed. NetJets does a great job of hiring good people, as you know. So quit and go qet a job with Qualcomm.
Anyway, my ramble is done. Thanks for the input man.
You make some good points, as usual. You kinda went off the focal point a little though. My post and concern has nothing to do with your quality of life, training, vacation etc.
My concern is simply the salary. The salary accepted by pilots of the largest fractional in the world! The name everyone knows! It makes absolutely no difference what share of the market your company makes up. The fact that everyone knows NetJets is all that matters. Come on man, I can't believe you even brought up all those statistics. For what? Everyone knows perseption IS reality. So, my point is, you are a Captain of one of the most Technologicly advanced airplanes in the world and you work for substancially less than most others in your position. Not to mention, it's been this way for a long period of time!
I know you're union is "trying" and "working" on a better contract and that's great. My concern is now, not when it gets better. It's been bad for a long time and it's getting old to see the same old report every year. What I really want to say, without sounding like too much of a jerk is: "Take some pride in what you do, DEMAND change."
Everytime I talk with one of you guys/gals around the country, I'm very delighted and impressed. NetJets does a great job of hiring good people, as you know. So quit and go qet a job with Qualcomm.
Anyway, my ramble is done. Thanks for the input man.
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
My concern is simply the salary....Everyone knows perseption IS reality.
[/ QUOTE ]That was my point perception is NOT the reality. Most perceive pay as the first and foremost measure. In reality there is more to it. The perception is that we are the giant of the industry, the reality is that we are only a tiny part of it. We are however, VERY visible. That is why we are singled out. Like I said above, I have friends in smaller equipment making as much or more than me, but they aren't very happy at it. There's more to life than the pay.
[ QUOTE ]
Take some pride in what you do, DEMAND change.
[/ QUOTE ]Believe me, there is a lot of pride in ourselves. Unfortunately, we have to follow legal protocol. Kinda like the college boys that came out day one and said "where's my CRJ/Airbus left seat." Sorry, it doesn't work that way. We can't just walk into the boss's office and say "pay up." We also can't just go on strike. We have to follow protocol. And frankly, we are all fed up with protocol. Time will tell if we have waited in vain. If so, 1900 pilots will be after your and Falcon Capts jobs
My concern is simply the salary....Everyone knows perseption IS reality.
[/ QUOTE ]That was my point perception is NOT the reality. Most perceive pay as the first and foremost measure. In reality there is more to it. The perception is that we are the giant of the industry, the reality is that we are only a tiny part of it. We are however, VERY visible. That is why we are singled out. Like I said above, I have friends in smaller equipment making as much or more than me, but they aren't very happy at it. There's more to life than the pay.
[ QUOTE ]
Take some pride in what you do, DEMAND change.
[/ QUOTE ]Believe me, there is a lot of pride in ourselves. Unfortunately, we have to follow legal protocol. Kinda like the college boys that came out day one and said "where's my CRJ/Airbus left seat." Sorry, it doesn't work that way. We can't just walk into the boss's office and say "pay up." We also can't just go on strike. We have to follow protocol. And frankly, we are all fed up with protocol. Time will tell if we have waited in vain. If so, 1900 pilots will be after your and Falcon Capts jobs
pilot602
If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]
In 2003, there were 287,000 commercial and ATP pilots. 1800 ATP rated pilots are at NJA.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually this figure is a little off, I think. I'm pretty sure this stat is adding commercial and ATP certificates together when they should be broken down seperately. The last set of numbres I saw (circa 1996) were that there were something on the order of 130,000 commercial certificates and like 120,000 ATP certificates. You really can't add the two together because you have to hold a commercial certificate in order to obtain an ATP. So 1,800 represents 1% of the ATP "population."
Not that it really changes anything but ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
In 2003, there were 287,000 commercial and ATP pilots. 1800 ATP rated pilots are at NJA.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually this figure is a little off, I think. I'm pretty sure this stat is adding commercial and ATP certificates together when they should be broken down seperately. The last set of numbres I saw (circa 1996) were that there were something on the order of 130,000 commercial certificates and like 120,000 ATP certificates. You really can't add the two together because you have to hold a commercial certificate in order to obtain an ATP. So 1,800 represents 1% of the ATP "population."
Not that it really changes anything but ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Actually this figure is a little off, I think. I'm pretty sure this stat is adding commercial and ATP certificates together when they should be broken down seperately. The last set of numbres I saw (circa 1996)...
[/ QUOTE ]
The numbers came from NBAAs 2003 data. I did combine them because not all corp pilots hold ATPs. Numbers were pulled from FAA and NBAA sources. I wouldn't think they would double count Comm/ATPs since the commercial ticket is surrendered on acceptance of the ATP.
I posted a link a posts up, to the NBAAs website. Towards the bottom of that page is another link to the FAAs site with a graph of all pilot categories/totals.
Actually this figure is a little off, I think. I'm pretty sure this stat is adding commercial and ATP certificates together when they should be broken down seperately. The last set of numbres I saw (circa 1996)...
[/ QUOTE ]
The numbers came from NBAAs 2003 data. I did combine them because not all corp pilots hold ATPs. Numbers were pulled from FAA and NBAA sources. I wouldn't think they would double count Comm/ATPs since the commercial ticket is surrendered on acceptance of the ATP.
I posted a link a posts up, to the NBAAs website. Towards the bottom of that page is another link to the FAAs site with a graph of all pilot categories/totals.