Need some advice. WWYD?

If you are unable to complete 2 classes successfully in a community college how are you going to manage when it comes to type ratings? College isn't about being able to recite information, it is a journey where you will learn to overcome obstacles, frustrations and provide solutions which are life skills.

To be honest with you I would not knowingly put my wife and family on a plane whose pilot highest educational achieve was a High School GPA who wasn't high enough to go to college.
 
I would recommend going to your colleges math resource center or tutoring center. I don't know of a college that doesn't have something like this set up. Spend an hour a week there going over your homework. The teachers presentations might not work for you, but someone else's likely will.

:yeahthat: I cannot possibly tell you what good advice this is. I took advanced algebra three times, once in high school and twice in college. I came from a 'liberal arts' educated family with no math background, and sort of learned by example that math was 'bad.' After the first time around I was convinced I was "just bad at math," yet I was stuck with conflicting goals because I admired guys like Kelly Johnson and Rutan and thought Aerospace Engineering would be a cool thing to major in, were it not totally built on this subject that I "hated" standing in my way. :banghead:

I finally bit the bullet on try #3 and went to my college's free peer tutoring center. At the time I looked at it as an admission of guilt, as if I were some academically-inferior idiot and that asking for help was a sign of weakness or something. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Wacofan said:
Fill in the gaps of your knowledge (Math is like a house, it builds from the foundation up. You either have a solid foundation or you have an excrement foundation. It sounds, based on your post, that you are trying to build on an excrement foundation. Rebuild the foundation and you will build a strong house - and, you may even like it).

This is incredibly good insight. After going in and asking a couple questions, I was fine. I couldn't believe it... I had a complete excrement foundation, and the things that were holding me back seemed insignificantly small (like adding fractions or doing long division!) and became really simple after learning the standardized step-by-step approaches to solving them. After rebuilding that foundation I realized I didn't need to keep coming in, but I decided to anyway since it was such a productive place to get homework done. Pretty soon I was helping my classmates there and they offered me a job, and I've been doing it every since. I look at it like "practice CFIing", and true to what people say about the CFI, the "best way to learn a subject is to try and teach it to someone else."

I still didn't really like math but I started seeing how applicable it is to aviation (there's pretty much no idea in math that can't be related to flying or building airplanes!). I sort of had an epiphany too, in that I stopped looking at it like it was the boogeyman and instead as a means to an end - a new screwdriver for your mental tool box that you can carry with you for the rest of your life - to be available when needed to do things YOU want to do, on your own terms. This seemed to take the edge off and all the sudden things weren't so bad.

In the end that whole idea that advanced algebra was this adversarial brick wall standing in the way of my progress was 100% in my own head. I got an A in the class, and to my chagrin I ended up really liking the subject. I just finished Mutli-Variable Calc and haven't run out of steam yet. PM me for further.

Just watch out... you could make a total 180 and end up liking it too. :)

Inigo
 
I guess this is my welcome back to Jetcareers, here let's see how much I can possibly disagree with Boris and WacoFan in the same post...post.

I have to disagree completely with my conservative counterparts. I have the same undergraduate degree as Boris (albeit from a different university), but I don't have a math minor. Instead, I pursued a political science minor. There are points where I understand where Boris is coming from, but I've also taken a completely different path as far as my supporting minor (I can quite Lenin and Locke much better than Kant and Hume).

In high school, I was never able to get anything about a C in math. Four years of it, and I got a C in algebra, a D+ in geometry, a C in algebra II and then a C in a college trig. course that I dual enrolled. Once I finally hit the university for real, I managed a C in algebra II there (it's where I placed on the math test, which should tell you something, being that I went DOWN a level) and then a C in pre-calc, which was a course I had already taken. And the end result? I'm in law school. Who woulda seen that coming, a kid that's bad in math, avoids math to go on to pursue a professional degree.

So without getting into a huge lecture about how I don't agree with Waco or Boris on this one at all, and how I quite frankly believe that some of us are hard wired to be good and bad at certain academic areas (I think this horse crap about being an amazing student at every subject you have thrown at you is just that, horse crap. There are engineers in my program struggling right now, a whole lotta good their high level math courses are doing them now eh?), I've got a few recommendations:

-I know this is hard to stomach at your age, and believe me I felt the exact same way; but if you're seeing a psychiatrist, and they run the DSM4 on you, and the guy eventually comes up and says "Hey kid you have ADD," then do yourself a favor and try the drugs for a while. Flying isn't everything, and if you don't try to work on this now, you'll never get anywhere. Simply put you can't get your head in the game until you get your head fixed.

-Find something you like studying. I was a fairly apathetic student unless it came to airplanes, but now quite frankly I've found with law school I've got something I can really challenge myself with. I was a straight 2.9 GPA kinda student until law school, and now I'm praying I can manage a 2.9 here :)

-Don't believe for one second that if you're bad at math you will fail at life. I'm living proof that it isn't true. Waco's daughter is, quite likely, a genius, and smarter than a few of us put together. At the same time, you need to figure out how to play to your strengths. In order to do so, you need to figure out what they are.
 
That may be part of the problem. The way the community college system works is its pretty much all general ed. Theres nothing fun. They had some photography classes and an aviation history class but dropped them due to funding issues. There isn't much to do there other than take whats required to start a major at a 4-year school and transfer. I'd love to take a geography or meterology class, but they don't offer one.

I graduated HS 6 yrs ago and have yet to grab a degree. With 126 credits from four different colleges, I might be on the cusp of getting it within another 16 credits...

I only did one semester at a community college and I agree it was the worst experience of my life. I didn't learn anything and got terrible grades. I also went to engineering school and didn't do too well. Then I found something that I love and I am getting respectable grades, while I was able to do plenty of flying at the same time.

I just say go at your own pace and do the classes you really don't like one or two in a semester at a time.

As someone once told me, "just do what makes your heart sing."
 
I dislike math but to get my bs and ms I had to take two behavioral statistics courses and an advanced algebra course. During the semesters in which I had the difficult courses I had to make changes in life to accomodate them. I cut back on work hours, didn't spend so many hours partying it up, and focused a lot of time studying. I also hired a tutor to prep for mid terms and finals. Check with others in your class and see if anyone is interested in study groups. Where there is a will, there is a way.

Kyle
 
There are people, I believe them to be the root of all evil and blame them for what is happening in the world, that are bad at math. Consider that you would never go to a party and say "I really suck at reading...I hate, hate HATE to read. I've never been good at reading. I hate reading". Saying such things would have the effect of you being shunned as an illiterate. Yet, people will say in all manor of social settings "I hate math. I suck at math. I really don't like math". Now, I am not sure why it is ok to be innumerate, but not ok to be illiterate, but I think many things in society would improve (including the complete failure of multi-level marketing schemes) if people embraced math.

Not quite the same in my opinion. When people say they don't like math, they mean they don't like higher-level math. Say trig, calc, and above. The equivalent in reading wouldn't be a simple like/dislike of reading, say, a novel. (And I've heard plenty of people saying they don't like to read.) The equivalent reading to the type of math you're talking about would be in depth reading comprehension, critical analysis of literature, critical analysis of news articles, and things that one might see on the verbal portion of the SATs.

When people say they don't like math they can (generally) still add subtract multiply and divide. Same with reading - though people may not like reading books they can still physically read and understand basic paragraphs, but those skills are still on the lower-level of the reading ladder.

EDIT: That was a nit-picky comment - your overall point was spot on in my opinion.
 
Obstacles are encountered in life that at face value are not fun, interesting, or in any way immediately rewarding. However, they be in the way of something that is important to you. For you, community college appears to be such an obstacle. It probably won't be the last. It might be better to cope with the situation now when you have more freedom and less responsibility than later in your life.

Whatever your specialty in life, general education is a good thing. I would not view a class as "useless" because it appears unrelated to your professional goal. A broader knowledge base allows you to relate to other people. I've also found learning something in one field can trigger an idea in another. Other times I read something new and suddenly see it in the world around me. In sum, you don't always know if knowledge is useful to you until you learn it. We can't know everything, or be experts in every field, but my mantra is "jack of all trades, master of one."

As far as abstract math goes, I am probably a special case but I use it everyday at work. The important thing is I use it to create practical, real life things. All of the great machines in aerospace have come about with the aid of mathematics. Maybe keeping that in mind will help motivate you. For instance, the 787 made its first flight today. It didn't reach that milestone without many people and computers running the numbers.

I think it is worth your while to press on. Focus on one class, do well, and gain confidence.
I currently live in the Bay Area between SFO and SJC and am good at math. I do not have experience teaching outside of helping classmates during college, and more specifically I do not have experience teaching anyone with an attention deficit. A professional geared towards your learning challenges could better serve you, but I am willing to help. Send me a PM if you want.
 
I have read through this topic twice now and cannot stop thinking about this. It seems many people don't know that we have specific learning skills, known to the academic world as multiple intelligences (MI). Most have hinted at it in one way or another, but few seemed to dig their feet into the sand and hold their ground.

We do learn in different ways. Some people will suck at math, others will suck at reading, and so on for the other MI's. There are 7 recognized intelligences and the degree you excel in one versus another can be fairly accurately determined.

I decided to take some time and try to organize some sites to allow anyone interested to do some further research on this idea. For the instructors reading this, this stuff is, IMO, a must read.

1) http://www.infed.org/thinkers/gardner.htm

Here is a quote directly from this site:
Howard Gardner's work around multiple intelligences has had a profound impact on thinking and practice in education - especially in the United States. Here we explore the theory of multiple intelligences; why it has found a ready audience amongst educationalists; and some of the issues around its conceptualization and realization.

Here you can get a general grasp at what MI is and some of it's impacts.


2) http://www.newhorizons.org/strategies/mi/campbell3.htm

A slightly more abbreviated version of the first source. For the lazy people.



3) http://literacyworks.org/mi/assessment/findyourstrengths.html

IMO this is an absolute must. This site is a wonderful source of information on MI and provides, what I believe, is one of the best tools available for instructors. It will tell you the kind of learner/teacher you are, which is typical of most. What is unique, and why I recommend it, is it also tells you how you can take advantage of your top 3 intelligence's when constructing lessons or organizing material to present to a student (logically organized cartoons in the example below). Finally, it gives a student some ideas on how to approach areas of weakness (patterns in words in the example below).

Take the quiz and you will get a little bit of an idea of what I am referring to. Here is something from my own test as an example:

I got a 4.14 for logic/math

Logic/math:You enjoy exploring how things are related, and you like to understand how things work. You like mathematical concepts, puzzles and manipulative games. You are good at critical thinking. Here are ways to work with this intelligence in your lessons:

Arrange cartoons and other pictures in a logical sequence.

Sort, categorize, and characterize word lists.

While reading a story, stop before you've finished and predict what will happen next.

Explore the origins of words.

Play games that require critical thinking. For example, pick the one word that doesn't fit: chair, table, paper clip, sofa. Explain why it doesn't fit.

Work with scrambled sentences. Talk about what happens when the order is changed.

After finishing a story, mind map some of the main ideas and details.

Write the directions for completing a simple job like starting a car or tying a shoe.

Make outlines of what you are going to write or of the material you've already read.

Look for patterns in words. What's the relationship between heal, health, and healthier?

Look at advertisements critically. What are they using to get you to buy their product?

If you have read this far, great. If you would like to do more research on this some topics include:

- Male vs female
- Eastern vs western
- City vs rural
- Gay vs straight

Each of these groupings exhibit different percentages for where they will fall. For instance, 70-80 percent of men fall into the logical category and 70-80 percent of women fall into the linguistic. I like to break these down into logical versus abstract thinkers, but I cannot find the source I had on this.

Finally, you can consider researching how to strengthen other areas. The site I linked with the quiz gives great ideas on this. You can find it here: http://literacyworks.org/mi/practice/index.html This, however, is only a starting point. Good luck and enjoy!

If anyone actually took the time to read this entirely; thank you and I hope you found it informative and useful.
 
Try to think of it as a game. Understanding what you're doing comes after you learn how to do it.

This is close to the truth if not right on it. The way to learn this stuff is through reading, repetition, and a little bit of thinking.

If you take your textbook, read the chapter, and follow carefully through their examples, and then work all of the problems, you'll ace it.

It really has nothing to do with being bad at math.

Think of it as a repetitive, mechanical thing. It can actually be fun, solving the problems one after another, once you get the pattern to it down.

I think you can do it, you post intelligently. Good luck to you !
 
I am in college and I am going through flight training (completed PPL about one month ago.) Here is my opinion:

1. Learning to fly is way harder than any college class
2. Flying can help with your ability to manage workload, understand concepts, and apply information
3. 90% of universities cater to the bottom tier of students. Therefore, every class is passable if you can figure out what each professors "switch" is.

I think you can do. I think you need to figure out how to manipulate the system to pass these classes and get the piece of paper.

I will look for any resources I can find that might be able to help you out.
 
Thanks for the advice guys.

As far as the ADD goes, I don't believe I have it, its just an excuse people give. Instead of saying "Try harder", people say "Take pills and it'll be easier". I'm not looking for the easy way out, I'm looking for the best way to do what needs to get done. I recently bought the P90X. I could start taking steroids and work out for hours and get ripped in half the time, or I can do it the right way and put myself on a plan that gets me in good shape both inside and out. Drugs aren't the answer to everything. Besides, I think ADD would affect me in more than one subject in school. And what happened in high school stays in high school, I'm writing a new history. Say what you'd like, but just because someone thinks I have a learning disorder when I may have just not been taught in a way that helps me break down long problems in a way I understand. I'm not going to just throw in the towel and say "Maybe I should stop flying" because I may or may not have a learning disorder. If I end up for some reason not being able to earn my ratings, then fine. But for now, I'll leave it up to a hiring board down the road as to whether or not I can fly at a 121 carrier.

Anyway, I'm going to sign up for the lower level math class this semester to get me up to speed, and see where it goes from there.
 
Some great advice here. I am just like Chase when it comes to math. I only passed my high school math courses because my TI-89 did all the work for me. I failed pre-calculus in college, got a C in college algebra, and dropped statistics because I was close to failing. In this period I was a mechanical engineering major then switched to economics.

I always managed to get really good grades in non-objective courses so I switched to political science. I'm doing really well now and only have one semester to go before I get my degree.

While I don't advocate running away from your shortfalls, I'd say do anything necessary to finish that degree. Switch schools, majors, whatever. Just make sure you finish it.
 
I guess this is my welcome back to Jetcareers, here let's see how much I can possibly disagree with Boris and WacoFan in the same post...post.

Welcome back Comrade...the communist wing has been rather flaccid since you went on sabbatical.

I believe that there are some people that are wired to engineering and the hard sciences, some to language, some to learning how to be a sell-out...I mean law school. :)

I think your point about Chasen and his ADD is spot on. If there is a problem, then he needs to address the problem. For a variety of reasons I haven't been able to touch an airplane in 15 years or so. I have lived. Now, I hang out here and think I will get to fly again, so it isn't exactly the same, but your point about life other than flying is well placed.

I think, in disagreement to your post, that you don't place enough credit/blame on the quality of the individual instruction the person is given. Maggie attends a very rigorous school. Classical schools are significantly different than public schools, and even most private schools. We have a huge number of kids on tuition assistance, or full scholarship, that come right out of the KCMO school district - which would rank among the worst in the nation. In fact, KCMO schools have lost their accreditation years ago and have yet to regain it.

Now, diving into a fast moving curriculum that includes Latin right out of a crap public school is not a recipe for success. Also, we are inflexible - we do not change or water down the curriculum to meet the needs of the slowest mover - we instead focus on speeding them up. Also, people will reject the Classical model because it is "hard" or "hard sounding". They ask if their child will be brought up to speed somehow and we say "No, the child will be thrown in the class and expected to perform". That is not to say that there are not extensive tutoring sessions after school or before (free) or that it is as "harsh" as it sounds. We simply believe that ALL kids can learn - fat or thin, rich or poor, black or white. We guide the school with "Love and Logic" (interestingly, Logic is taught starting in fourth grade). What we find is that these kids thrive in this environment, and with this challenge. In fact, 90% of the Seniors scored in the top 10% of the ACT and our grads get lots of scholarship money from good schools. We do not buy, or believe, that some kids just can't do it. And, because the kids are told from day one - when they are the most lost - that not only will they succeed, but they will excel they make that a self-fulfilling prophecy.

This thread started a string of PM's between Boris and I last night that ended up with us both donning our tin-foil helmets about the coming Apocalypse. I will say - if I were going to control a large mass of people I would certainly start by making them stupid. Then I would allow them to vote themselves the treasury. Neither Boris or I think that the degradation of our public schools and educational system is by accident.
 
A little busy right now, but whilst I sharpen my rhetorical knives for jtrain's return, I'll just observe that math is the language of the objective universe in the same way that vibrating the air is the language of the subjective human experience. Or at least it's as close as we get to being able to describe the objective. One isn't "better" or "more important" than the other, but I feature that if you totally dismiss one or the other, you leave yourself in a solipsistic box...so much a prisoner that you don't even know you're locked up.
 
Seriously, how can anyone like this?:)


Integral7.png
 
Thanks for the advice guys.

As far as the ADD goes, I don't believe I have it, its just an excuse people give. Instead of saying "Try harder", people say "Take pills and it'll be easier". I'm not looking for the easy way out, I'm looking for the best way to do what needs to get done. I recently bought the P90X. I could start taking steroids and work out for hours and get ripped in half the time, or I can do it the right way and put myself on a plan that gets me in good shape both inside and out. Drugs aren't the answer to everything. Besides, I think ADD would affect me in more than one subject in school. And what happened in high school stays in high school, I'm writing a new history. Say what you'd like, but just because someone thinks I have a learning disorder when I may have just not been taught in a way that helps me break down long problems in a way I understand. I'm not going to just throw in the towel and say "Maybe I should stop flying" because I may or may not have a learning disorder. If I end up for some reason not being able to earn my ratings, then fine. But for now, I'll leave it up to a hiring board down the road as to whether or not I can fly at a 121 carrier.

Anyway, I'm going to sign up for the lower level math class this semester to get me up to speed, and see where it goes from there.

Think of it like this.

A person is in an airplane. We run into continuous light, occasional moderate chop. They scream, "ZOMG! I've NEVER seen turbulence this bad! WE'RE ALL GOING TO DO DIE!"

I, on the other hand, sit there and say, "It's just some moderate chop, no big deal, we'll be out of this in a second."

I am a trained professional, the person making their own judgments without any training or education is simply going on what they feel, and what they feel is scared to death.

In the same way, you should speak with, and put some trust in a trained psychiatrist, somebody with an M.D. A school counselor can't diagnose ADD, nor can a general family doctor. The only person that is going to give you the proper diagnosis is somebody with the proper training. You don't have that training, and I would put your health in their hands if I were you.

As taboo as it is, having your head healthy is just as important as having any other part of your body healthy. The drugs that exist today are miracle drugs for many people, and allow some people to live normal, functional lives when they'd otherwise be a mess. The lines you're using right now are the same lines that schizophrenics and folks with bipolar disorder use; you don't need the help, you'll do it on your own. Quite frankly we used to take people like them and put them in rooms and then throw away the room. Now we have better treatment options across the spectrum, and you should take advantage of them.

Like I said, don't trust some high school counselor. Talk with somebody that's trained to give a proper diagnosis, in the same way that if you wanted to learn about instrument training you'd talk with a CFII.

Also, this might not just be one subject matter if you graduated high school with a 2.0. A grade point that low is indicative of a systemic problem.
 
Welcome back Comrade...the communist wing has been rather flaccid since you went on sabbatical.

Not surprising, I always was the, erm, heavy lifter around here.

I believe that there are some people that are wired to engineering and the hard sciences, some to language, some to learning how to be a sell-out...I mean law school. :)
I sold out when I went to the regionals! Now I'm buying in with law school :)

I think your point about Chasen and his ADD is spot on. If there is a problem, then he needs to address the problem. For a variety of reasons I haven't been able to touch an airplane in 15 years or so. I have lived. Now, I hang out here and think I will get to fly again, so it isn't exactly the same, but your point about life other than flying is well placed.

I think, in disagreement to your post, that you don't place enough credit/blame on the quality of the individual instruction the person is given. Maggie attends a very rigorous school. Classical schools are significantly different than public schools, and even most private schools. We have a huge number of kids on tuition assistance, or full scholarship, that come right out of the KCMO school district - which would rank among the worst in the nation. In fact, KCMO schools have lost their accreditation years ago and have yet to regain it.

Have you considered that your child flourishes in a rigorous school BECAUSE of her intelligence? You have to admit, she is probably in the top 10% of the population as far as raw intelligence goes, and if you provide the proper motivation to somebody like that then they will go far. What about somebody in the bottom 50%? Same results? I'd argue there's not a chance.

Now, diving into a fast moving curriculum that includes Latin right out of a crap public school is not a recipe for success. Also, we are inflexible - we do not change or water down the curriculum to meet the needs of the slowest mover - we instead focus on speeding them up. Also, people will reject the Classical model because it is "hard" or "hard sounding". They ask if their child will be brought up to speed somehow and we say "No, the child will be thrown in the class and expected to perform". That is not to say that there are not extensive tutoring sessions after school or before (free) or that it is as "harsh" as it sounds. We simply believe that ALL kids can learn - fat or thin, rich or poor, black or white. We guide the school with "Love and Logic" (interestingly, Logic is taught starting in fourth grade). What we find is that these kids thrive in this environment, and with this challenge. In fact, 90% of the Seniors scored in the top 10% of the ACT and our grads get lots of scholarship money from good schools. We do not buy, or believe, that some kids just can't do it. And, because the kids are told from day one - when they are the most lost - that not only will they succeed, but they will excel they make that a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Ain't nothing wrong with hard, nothing at all. And while I understand the self-fulfilling prophecy (the school system I grew up in was horrible, and suffered from the problem of not expecting anything out of their students), there ARE some people that simply are not as intelligent as others. I know we'd all love to hold hands and say we're all smart and nice and wonderful people, but that is sadly not the case. Some of us are smarter than others, and some of us have areas that we can focus on that we will do well in.

So with that, why focus on being the best at everything? If you realize that a person has the propensity to be a literary scholar, why lambaste them with upper level math? In the same vein, if a person finds that they can do high level experimental math, there is certainly a basic level of reading that we will always expect and enforce with them, but do we need to force them to do translations of The Republic to modern day English?

Of course not, the idea is preposterous. In the same vein that you hire an employee to focus on a specific area, we should be funneling people into the areas that they not only enjoy studying, but are good at. Would you fire an employee for being unable to do multivariable calculus if it wasn't part of their job description? No, of course not. And we shouldn't judge a persons intelligence, nor should we push them in academic areas that they are unfit for.[/quote]

This thread started a string of PM's between Boris and I last night that ended up with us both donning our tin-foil helmets about the coming Apocalypse. I will say - if I were going to control a large mass of people I would certainly start by making them stupid. Then I would allow them to vote themselves the treasury. Neither Boris or I think that the degradation of our public schools and educational system is by accident.
I agree completely, but I think it's also telling to understand and tailor our academic expectations and requirements to 1. a minimum basic level of acceptance in every area and more importantly 2. an ultra high area for the areas in which a person can thrive. Einstein wasn't exactly no Einstein when it came to all subject matters, but we don't claim that he was an idiot. In the same way, I doubt Shakespeare was much for math.

To the point, we will seldom see true Renissence men like Descartes.
 
A little busy right now, but whilst I sharpen my rhetorical knives for jtrain's return, I'll just observe that math is the language of the objective universe in the same way that vibrating the air is the language of the subjective human experience. Or at least it's as close as we get to being able to describe the objective. One isn't "better" or "more important" than the other, but I feature that if you totally dismiss one or the other, you leave yourself in a solipsistic box...so much a prisoner that you don't even know you're locked up.

Oh I don't doubt that at all. In fact a debate that my wife and I are involved in on a regular basis it seems is whether gravity is a law or a theory. I'm adamant that while physics seems like a sure bet, it's really a statistical crap shoot. And gravity? We don't even know how it works! These days physicists are telling me that there is something called a graviton that makes gravity function. A graviton? Is he related to Megatron? The idea sounds crazy.

Math, on the other hand, there is your truth. It is true a priori knowledge that we can rely on. Placing your bets on physics is no better than the craps table in Vegas, and it has its odds. But math will show us what's really going on in the world.

That being said, I'll never claim that the entire world will understand it, nor even a simple majority.
 
Physics is still a statistical crap shoot.

Newton? Wrong.

Einstein? Questionable.

String theory? Seriously?

Quantum mechanics? Doesn't agree with Einstein.

We know much about about math than we do physics.
 
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