Near miss at DCA this morning. Be careful out there.

[cmac88]

New FAA ATC fatigue mandate

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-faa-rest-rules-address-fatigue-issues-air-traffic-controllers-rcna148572 This will be interesting. Not sure how the 12 hours before a mid will work without doing some drastically different things... At least for where I'm at....

jetcareers.com

Started a thread in that when I read it a bit ago if you guys want to jump in.... Definitely going to be interesting.

 

[inigo88]

Most ICAO countries require that whomever owns the runway for landing, crosses traffic on that runway. It's not unusual to go from ground to tower to ground and then back to tower while heading out. For whatever reason the .65 doesn't require that, although many airports local procedures do.

It seems really hit or miss in the US, and each facility SOP defines what taxiways tower owns vs ground. For example LAX tower owns the taxiways between the parallel runways so you’ll hear them give initial taxi and hold short instructions on tower freq, with a clear to cross and monitor ground on the other side. It seems like DCA does something similar where the tower owns the taxiways SW of runway 4. Conversely when SFO is taxiing heavy departures to the 28s while departing everyone else on the 1s, I believe the cross runway 1L cross runway 1R is issued by ground, meaning ground and tower had to coordinate amongst themselves to make sure nobody is cleared for takeoff at the same time as the crossing clearance was issued.

As annoyingly inefficient as it would be, imposing the ICAO standard of forcing the same local controller who owns the runway to own the crossing clearances “seems” potentially safer. However even this isn’t infallible, I think LAS just had a thing (separate VASA video) where someone was cleared to cross and then subsequently someone was cleared for takeoff on the same runway, and I believe that was the same controller. Pilot slammed on the brakes and waited when they heard the takeoff clearance and sort of quietly took it up with ground when the danger had passed.

 

[cmac88]

I read somewhere that 4 had not been used much recently due to some construction so that plus an obviously new or training controller could be what happened.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Have you ever had an RTO?

Had to do one for MX at 70 kts at VX.


Other than that, a couple at low speeds, eg, below 20-25 kts.

No high speed yet.

 

[SurferLucas]

Had to do one for MX at 70 kts at VX.


Other than that, a couple at low speeds, eg, below 20-25 kts.

No high speed yet.

So you had one that was pre-planned, and a couple that were somewhat moving…but no real “startle” factors involved.

I’ve had one lowspeed and one high speed (with a Capt OE student on his qual leg), and there’s zero way I’m flying after either of those.

Right now airlines and pilots are in the “if it bleeds it leads” crosshairs.

Let’s say you are the JB pilots, you reject, do post RTO-stuff and press on. At your destination, you goof something up…Company now has you right where they want you, you’re going under the bus. Full stop.

You’ve been told in ever CBT/ground school/company koolaid secession that you can remove yourself from a flight for fatigue/safety/etc…and you didn’t.

Folks, you don’t have to be the hero. For the sake of your own certificate/career…if you end up involved in a “non-normal”, pull yourself off the trip and CYA.

 

[bimmerphile]

Geez in the years and years I’ve operated there, and even been based there doing shuttle flying in the late 90s, I’ve just never seen that with any regularity.

been pretty common last few years

even see the FAA shuttle merlin blasting off from there quite a number of times

 

[scooter2525]

So you had one that was pre-planned, and a couple that were somewhat moving…but no real “startle” factors involved.

I’ve had one lowspeed and one high speed (with a Capt OE student on his qual leg), and there’s zero way I’m flying after either of those.

Right now airlines and pilots are in the “if it bleeds it leads” crosshairs.

Let’s say you are the JB pilots, you reject, do post RTO-stuff and press on. At your destination, you goof something up…Company now has you right where they want you, you’re going under the bus. Full stop.

You’ve been told in ever CBT/ground school/company koolaid secession that you can remove yourself from a flight for fatigue/safety/etc…and you didn’t.

Folks, you don’t have to be the hero. For the sake of your own certificate/career…if you end up involved in a “non-normal”, pull yourself off the trip and CYA.

Boom #CAPTAIN

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

So you had one that was pre-planned, and a couple that were somewhat moving…but no real “startle” factors involved.

I’ve had one lowspeed and one high speed (with a Capt OE student on his qual leg), and there’s zero way I’m flying after either of those.

Right now airlines and pilots are in the “if it bleeds it leads” crosshairs.

Let’s say you are the JB pilots, you reject, do post RTO-stuff and press on. At your destination, you goof something up…Company now has you right where they want you, you’re going under the bus. Full stop.

You’ve been told in ever CBT/ground school/company koolaid secession that you can remove yourself from a flight for fatigue/safety/etc…and you didn’t.

Folks, you don’t have to be the hero. For the sake of your own certificate/career…if you end up involved in a “non-normal”, pull yourself off the trip and CYA.

There is no black or white answer. It depends how you feel.


I saw a guy get off my plane, up in the jetbridge area, collapse. We got an AED from the plane to help him. One deplaned pax was a doctor, administered the AED. Got to see 3 shocks. It’s quite a thing to witness. He didn’t come back. Guy died. First “guy died in front of your eyes” kinda thing for me.


I kept all parties updated. CP said it was my call if I wanted to call it a day or if I wanted to continue. I felt fine, I did what I could, nothing now was going to change the outcome. And I felt fine to continue. So I flew my next leg as CA.



Again, different people respond differently to different scenarios. I had no problems continuing. It’s not like I was mentally disturbed or shaken up.

 

[SurferLucas]

There is no black or white answer. It depends how you feel.


I saw a guy get off my plane, up in the jetbridge area, collapse. We got an AED from the plane to help him. One deplaned pax was a doctor, administered the AED. Got to see 3 shocks. It’s quite a thing to witness. He didn’t come back. Guy died. First “guy died in front of your eyes” kinda thing for me.


I kept all parties updated. CP said it was my call if I wanted to call it a day or if I wanted to continue. I felt fine, I did what I could, nothing now was going to change the outcome. And I felt fine to continue. So I flew my next leg as CA.



Again, different people respond differently to different scenarios. I had no problems continuing. It’s not like I was mentally disturbed or shaken up.

You say that now, but I can PROMISE you that if you goof something up after an RTO/etc…Virtual air isn’t going to have your back like you think. I’ve seen it from the inside of the other operation, and if you’re an easy target, you’re going under the bus.

Your risk assessment/ tolerance is your own deal, but don’t try to be the “Billy Badass” pilot who ends up with time off while the FAA/company schedule Big Brown Desk meetings on your behalf.

 

[A300Capt]

We have a "Post RTO Considerations" guide that we've got to run through after an event like that. Sometimes we're able to give it another shot, other times we're headed back to the gate.

At Brown RTO’s required a logbook write up regardless of speed or reason and then it had to be cleared before a 2nd takeoff attempt. This required coordination between Dispatch and MX to clear the write up. All this communication was to close the “need to know” chain of command loop and (IMHO) to get as many people as possible up on the gallows when the finger pointing started. Hanging, in aviation, is meant to be a group sport!

Obviously, as in the JetBlue case here, they may have had an additional issue or someone spilled their hot Starbucks cappuccino grande on themselves which required them to return to the gate…um, for a refill.

 

[NovemberEcho]

You guys have been run chronically understaffed for so long at this point that it seems quasi-intentional. Like I get the academy in OKC is a bottle neck, but this is ridiculous. Who could have thought that would eventually have negative consequences to aviation safety?!

It’s far cheaper to pay overtime than hire more bodies.

 

[derg]

There is no black or white answer. It depends how you feel.


I saw a guy get off my plane, up in the jetbridge area, collapse. We got an AED from the plane to help him. One deplaned pax was a doctor, administered the AED. Got to see 3 shocks. It’s quite a thing to witness. He didn’t come back. Guy died. First “guy died in front of your eyes” kinda thing for me.


I kept all parties updated. CP said it was my call if I wanted to call it a day or if I wanted to continue. I felt fine, I did what I could, nothing now was going to change the outcome. And I felt fine to continue. So I flew my next leg as CA.



Again, different people respond differently to different scenarios. I had no problems continuing. It’s not like I was mentally disturbed or shaken up.

You really don’t know how you feel until the adrenaline is down.

I had smoke onboard a 1900 during a run up test, shut it down and jumped out on the active taxiway. Felt fine, sent home, slept 14 hours that day.
Engine failure on second-stage climb-out at ORD, sent to the hotel after landing, fell asleep in the hotel shuttle and slept 8 hours.
High (!!!) speed RTO in an MD-90 in SLC. Flight cancelled, nodded off in the pilot lounge, missed my commuter flight home.

 

[greg1016]

You guys have been run chronically understaffed for so long at this point that it seems quasi-intentional. Like I get the academy in OKC is a bottle neck, but this is ridiculous. Who could have thought that would eventually have negative consequences to aviation safety?!

I've been to the FAA academy 3 times, most recently last month. Each time I've gone the lines to get through the gates have been shorter, and the lines and seats at the main cafe have been shorter, indicating there have been less people moving through there. Ostensibly due to a lack of instructors. In my last class some instructors were pulling doubles.

 

[Ian_J]

This all makes me think of @Hacker15e ’s story about SAMs in bad guy land.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You say that now, but I can PROMISE you that if you goof something up after an RTO/etc…Virtual air isn’t going to have your back like you think. I’ve seen it from the inside of the other operation, and if you’re an easy target, you’re going under the bus.

Your risk assessment/ tolerance is your own deal, but don’t try to be the “Billy Badass” pilot who ends up with time off while the FAA/company schedule Big Brown Desk meetings on your behalf.

Well, if I goof up my landing in LAX, I can assure you it won’t be because I was still mentally living 5 hrs in the past about DCA.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

At a minimum, it’s a lingering distraction. We make efforts to minimize distractions.

I flew immediately after a break-up, regretted it. I flew immediately after the death of a friend, regretted it. I flew hours after a smoke-in-cockpit event and change of aircraft, regretted it.

Even if you aren’t shaking in your boots, an RTO could certainly be distracting. After an RTO, I wouldn’t want to spend the entire flight talking about the RTO. On a related note, has anybody else ever asked for a sterile cockpit just to end a dumb conversation?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

At a minimum, it’s a lingering distraction. We make efforts to minimize distractions.

I flew immediately after a break-up, regretted it. I flew immediately after the death of a friend, regretted it. I flew hours after a smoke-in-cockpit event and change of aircraft, regretted it.

Even if you aren’t shaking in your boots, an RTO could certainly be distracting. After an RTO, I wouldn’t want to spend the entire flight talking about the RTO. On a related note, has anybody else ever asked for a sterile cockpit just to end a dumb conversation?

Like I said, some people are just different.

I saw a guy die in front of me, and I was basically like, my gate for the next flight is that away, so I’m gonna head that way…..

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Like I said, some people are just different.

I saw a guy die in front of me, and I was basically like, my gate for the next flight is that away, so I’m gonna head that way…..

Yeah, sometimes I’m surprised at what hits me hard. The death of a friend, killed me. My father’s death, he a had a good run and the suffering is over, what’s for dinner?

 

[phill1174]

As a lowly GA pilot, I'm always fascinated at how when an abort is done, the crew is like "nope, we done - back to the gate." I always assume hot brakes, but is it something else? This one didn't look like that long of a roll.

At Endeavor it was in our FOM. Had to have a call with the CP after a RTO. Nothing at the current shop. I like the way it was done in the past life honestly. There’s a number of things that can contribute to a RTO. Was the airplane not configured correctly, runway incursion, etc. Then comes the why? With some of these RTO reasons. Fatigue is a big threat here. it’s nice to be able to asses the crew condition or situation with someone from the outside before saying “let’s continue the show”. With all that being said an RTO is also a high adrenaline event.

 

[Kingairer]

We have the clarity of seeing both sides and knowing the answer when watching the video. I’m sure those guys were saying “we were cleared right?” Or “I swear she cleared us to cross” for SW. My thoughts would be going wild replaying the event and writing the paperwork in my head. Depending on how reality matched up with the video, I’d go back to gate and call it a day as well. 80knots is a mandatory return regardless of reason for abort at AA.