Near miss at DCA this morning. Be careful out there.

[ZapBrannigan]

That runway is so seldom used I would be surprised to see an airplane using it for takeoff. Expectation bias might have created some of the problem here. I’d have probably pulled over to assess whether we could continue or were too shaken up after that - maybe called and engaged the chief pilot on call. I like the idea of going back to the gate only because there are phone calls to be made and reports to be written. Better those things happen when they’re fresh in your mind.

Interestingly we have a requirement to immediately notify of a near mid air collision, and a requirement to notify of a near collision with ground equipment within 24 hours, but I don’t see a requirement for notification of a near ground collision with another aircraft. Although I would err on the side of caution and call them anyway under the midair section I suppose.

 

[Michigan_Flyer]

Ground cleared Southwest to cross Rwy 4 in the initial instructions (so good for everyone driving defensively). I'm used to talking with Tower before crossing active runways, but I know certain airports have different local policies.

Any idea what kind of coordination between Tower and Ground would normally occur at DCA? I.e., would be on a phone recording, or just a face-to-face exchange with no evidence beyond recollection?

Having ground control clear you across an active runway is common. DCA does it all day, every day. As do a lot of other airports. I don’t know the answer to your coordination question. For what it’s worth, I recognized the other controller voices on the tape, but not that ground controller. She is either new or in training.

 

[Michigan_Flyer]

That runway is so seldom used I would be surprised to see an airplane using it for takeoff. Expectation bias might have created some of the problem here. I’d have probably pulled over to assess whether we could continue or were too shaken up after that - maybe called and engaged the chief pilot on call. I like the idea of going back to the gate only because there are phone calls to be made and reports to be written. Better those things happen when they’re fresh in your mind.

Interestingly we have a requirement to immediately notify of a near mid air collision, and a requirement to notify of a near collision with ground equipment within 24 hours, but I don’t see a requirement for notification of a near ground collision with another aircraft. Although I would err on the side of caution and call them anyway under the midair section I suppose.

That’s a very good point. I’ve flown out of DCA quite a lot the past seven years, and I’ve taken off from runway four exactly one times.

 

[BobDDuck]

Having ground control clear you across an active runway is common. DCA does it all day, every day. As do a lot of other airports. I don’t know the answer to your coordination question. For what it’s worth, I recognized the other controller voices on the tape, but not that ground controller. She is either new or in training.

Most ICAO countries require that whomever owns the runway for landing, crosses traffic on that runway. It's not unusual to go from ground to tower to ground and then back to tower while heading out. For whatever reason the .65 doesn't require that, although many airports local procedures do.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Pure speculation here, but after talking to a coworker who used to be at DCA, he said it’s very common for 4 to have a blanket cleared to cross because it’s so rarely used and likely the ground controller cleared them across out of habit, or if the JetBlue was a one-off on 4 there might have been missed coordination somewhere and the GC were unaware anyone was even using 4.

 

[BobDDuck]

Pure speculation here, but after talking to a coworker who used to be at DCA, he said it’s very common for 4 to have a blanket cleared to cross because it’s so rarely used and likely the ground controller cleared them across out of habit, or if the JetBlue was a one-off on 4 there might have been missed coordination somewhere and the GC were unaware anyone was even using 4.

I haven't flown out of there in about 11 years, but that aligns with my memory of DCA ops. I do know that when we got departures off of 4, it took coordination to of spacing for arrivals on both 1 and 33, as well as aircraft taxiing out to 1 and 33.

I'm not sure if they still do it, but the tower cab controllers there used to be really good about taking tour requests from crews on long sits between flights. I'd always try to bring new FOs up there if we had the time so they could get a sense of just how complex the timing on arrivals was.

 

[derg]

We have a "Post RTO Considerations" guide that we've got to run through after an event like that. Sometimes we're able to give it another shot, other times we're headed back to the gate.

 

[SurferLucas]

We have a "Post RTO Considerations" guide that we've got to run through after an event like that. Sometimes we're able to give it another shot, other times we're headed back to the gate.

Mine was a very, very low energy RTO…we ended up back at the gate and went to the hotel.

Depending on the “how/what/when/where” that the RTO happens…you’ve had a ton of adrenaline dumped into your system, and while you might feel ok “now”, chances are good that in an hour you’re going to be driving the struggle bus.

 

[killbilly]

Mine was a very, very low energy RTO…we ended up back at the gate and went to the hotel.

Depending on the “how/what/when/where” that the RTO happens…you’ve had a ton of adrenaline dumped into your system, and while you might feel ok “now”, chances are good that in an hour you’re going to be driving the struggle bus.

The last leg of my last flight at the previous employer, we had a high-speed RTO.

It was exactly as you said. We were "fine" for about an hour or so after the event. Ours was MX-related so we weren't going anywhere soon.

By the time the company decided to cancel us and send us to the hotel - perhaps 2 hours after - I felt like I'd been hit by a truck.

 

[Bob Ridpath]

I like the consideration built into the system which anticipates personal reaction somewhat later and provides for the well-being of the original crew who will experience it and passenger safety. Emergency services hasn't evolved to that point. Whether Dispatch, Fire, EMS, or Police, one can (and often does) go from high-stress call to high-stress call without respite - and the degradation of services provided, along with the personal cost to responders, is clearly evident. The suck is real but the need is greater, so ya' jump in and do what you can.

I hope that - one day - we'll evolve to the place many of you know after high-stress situations. Of course, a flight can be rescheduled/recrewed while the next emergency can't be; still, adequate staffing and follow-up with critical incident stress counseling could go a long way toward responder health, longevity on the job, and effectiveness service.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Having ground control clear you across an active runway is common. DCA does it all day, every day. As do a lot of other airports. I don’t know the answer to your coordination question. For what it’s worth, I recognized the other controller voices on the tape, but not that ground controller. She is either new or in training.

I heard some DEEEEE EEEEE EYEEEE in that voice.

 

[bimmerphile]

That runway is so seldom used I would be surprised to see an airplane using it for takeoff. Expectation bias might have created some of the problem here. I’d have probably pulled over to assess whether we could continue or were too shaken up after that - maybe called and engaged the chief pilot on call. I like the idea of going back to the gate only because there are phone calls to be made and reports to be written. Better those things happen when they’re fresh in your mind.

Interestingly we have a requirement to immediately notify of a near mid air collision, and a requirement to notify of a near collision with ground equipment within 24 hours, but I don’t see a requirement for notification of a near ground collision with another aircraft. Although I would err on the side of caution and call them anyway under the midair section I suppose.

4 is used regularly for departures by RJs and small narrowbodies going to the northeast.. in my experience initial taxi clearances usually get you to hold short of 4, and then get another clearance to cross once you are closer before getting switched to tower on the other side

 

[nabbyfan]

Close call at DCA and now the FAA administrator is trying to quickly impose new fatigue rules between shifts for controllers. Coincidence? He wants 10 Hours between shifts, and 12 hours before an overnight shift. Those changes would completely and drastically change the way we are scheduled. Seemingly no collaboration with the Union on it, so this will be interesting.

Of course in true FAA management fashion, he somehow is trying to address fatigue in ATC while pretending he isn't aware we all are working 6 days a week UFN. I get 4 days off a month....maybe lets start there.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

That’s a pretty short runway, at high gross they very likely would be above brake energy limits.

That being said- if I was the CP/CPO I’d pull
The crew off that flight kinda regardless. The next hours going to be a bunch of distraction/ reaction time. Let the crew do that over lunch vs up front at 500mph.

A short flight to the northeast? I don’t think their weights would be high. Even on a 5,000 ft runway, that intersection is about 1000-1200 ft down. So maybe 80 kts? 90ish at best? I think the VASA graphics make it look worse than it is with the large airplane symbol overlays.

Pull off the crew? It wasn’t near death or anything like that. Personally I’d be ok with continuing after all checklists and notifications complete.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

We have a "Post RTO Considerations" guide that we've got to run through after an event like that. Sometimes we're able to give it another shot, other times we're headed back to the gate.

I’d love to see that list if it’s something you’re permitted to share.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

A short flight to the northeast? I don’t think their weights would be high. Even on a 5,000 ft runway, that intersection is about 1000-1200 ft down. So maybe 80 kts? 90ish at best? I think the VASA graphics make it look worse than it is with the large airplane symbol overlays.

Pull off the crew? It wasn’t near death or anything like that. Personally I’d be ok with continuing after all checklists and notifications complete.

That’s fine if you want to continue, not everybody would feel the same. As a CP after an event that’s gonna put them off their game - not even worth asking if they’re ok with it. Give them a ride in the back. That’s why we have reserves.

At least at this corpie dept. that’s what would happen… because well CRM/tem/sms and all that stuff.

At 80kts running into a 737, your just as dead as you are at 300.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I’d love to see that list if it’s something you’re permitted to share.

During event:


Double breasted jacket, both buttons remained closed… Continue flight operations


One button popped open… Pilot discretion to continue.


Both buttons popped open: return to gate.


Pants soiled: Flight canceled, return to hotel.

 

[inigo88]

Close call at DCA and now the FAA administrator is trying to quickly impose new fatigue rules between shifts for controllers. Coincidence? He wants 10 Hours between shifts, and 12 hours before an overnight shift. Those changes would completely and drastically change the way we are scheduled. Seemingly no collaboration with the Union on it, so this will be interesting.

Of course in true FAA management fashion, he somehow is trying to address fatigue in ATC while pretending he isn't aware we all are working 6 days a week UFN. I get 4 days off a month....maybe let’s start there.

You guys have been run chronically understaffed for so long at this point that it seems quasi-intentional. Like I get the academy in OKC is a bottle neck, but this is ridiculous. Who could have thought that would eventually have negative consequences to aviation safety?!

 

[ZapBrannigan]

4 is used regularly for departures by RJs and small narrowbodies going to the northeast.. in my experience initial taxi clearances usually get you to hold short of 4, and then get another clearance to cross once you are closer before getting switched to tower on the other side

Geez in the years and years I’ve operated there, and even been based there doing shuttle flying in the late 90s, I’ve just never seen that with any regularity.

 

[SurferLucas]

Even on a 5,000 ft runway, that intersection is about 1000-1200 ft down. So maybe 80 kts? 90ish at best?
Pull off the crew? It wasn’t near death or anything like that. Personally I’d be ok with continuing after all checklists and notifications complete.

Have you ever had an RTO?