Near Mid-air collision between a B737 and a BPIAA CJ1!
- Thread starter flyneehao
- Start date
traffic_conflict
New Member
The B737 was departing ZBSJ (Shijiazhuang-Zhending airport)cleared to climb at 4500mt (in China altitude is metric), the CJ1 was descending inbound to the same airport. When the B737 was about to level off the TCAS sent a traffic proximity warning, as the CJ1 was within 1000ft. The B737 executed a steep turn to avoid the collision. The CJ1 did not alter his course or heading.
After this first incident the CJ1 was cleared to land in ZBSJ but the pilot was unable to join the Localizer for the ILS approach. He executed a missed approach and couldn't find his own way back to the airport. ATC had to give him radar vectors to join the final again.
Both the B737 pilots are chinese with ATPL license, the CJ1 pilot is an American citizen with Chinese heritage, fluent in Mandarin language, With FAA Commercial and FAA flight instructor certificate, newly rated on the CJ1 and a total of about 450hrs.
No, that is not a typing mistake. It's four-hundred-and-eighty hours total time.
After this first incident the CJ1 was cleared to land in ZBSJ but the pilot was unable to join the Localizer for the ILS approach. He executed a missed approach and couldn't find his own way back to the airport. ATC had to give him radar vectors to join the final again.
Both the B737 pilots are chinese with ATPL license, the CJ1 pilot is an American citizen with Chinese heritage, fluent in Mandarin language, With FAA Commercial and FAA flight instructor certificate, newly rated on the CJ1 and a total of about 450hrs.
No, that is not a typing mistake. It's four-hundred-and-eighty hours total time.
Stick and Rudder
New Member
Well is it 450 hours, or 480 hours? Is this an accurate description of the incident, or just another Beijing PanAm rumor? Are you sure it was a 737? Was this 450 hour wonder listed as the pilot-in-command? Please clarify with factual evidence.
traffic_conflict
New Member
480 hours. Citation 525 (CJ1) can be flown as single pilot, therefore if you are the only pilot at the controles, I assume you also are PIC. About the scheduled commercial airliner, the B737 model and airline are the only information currently unverified.
Spacepodlife
New Member
Does it really make any difference? It's a Jet, not my old '69 Mini minor MK2!
Stick and Rudder
New Member
No, it doesn't make any difference if he had 450, 480, or 4800 hours and 10 Type ratings. The fact is, there was a traffic conflict. And I might add that it probably wasn't the only one that happened in the world that day. And, if this would have happened in a DA-40, DA-42, or your '69 Mini motor MK2, it would have never made this post. I'm only saying people should get their facts straight before posting information on something like this. Don't you agree?
Always Moving
New Member
And the pilot was talking in Chinese, which left the Ferry pilot out of the loop. Basically he was flying single pilot.
The truth is that if it happened in the USA the FAA would have had a talk and that's about it, may be a fine.
The truth is also that the two people that were flying those planes (THE WHOLE CJ TEACHING STAFF WHAT THE H*LL) with their flying time will find it very hard to get insurance in a twin.
There will be an investigation and nothing will be learned about it because the person who is doing the investigation will be told to not do his job properly as usual.
Also I AM SURE Visibility was a factor.
The truth is that if it happened in the USA the FAA would have had a talk and that's about it, may be a fine.
The truth is also that the two people that were flying those planes (THE WHOLE CJ TEACHING STAFF WHAT THE H*LL) with their flying time will find it very hard to get insurance in a twin.
There will be an investigation and nothing will be learned about it because the person who is doing the investigation will be told to not do his job properly as usual.
Also I AM SURE Visibility was a factor.
Spacepodlife
New Member
Who me? No I do not agree. And since you ask I'll tell you why.
A CJ1 cruises around 250 kts in vector mode, it covers, let's say, 1000ft in 2.3 seconds. If on the opposite course there is another airplane traveling at a similar speed that will make 1.15 seconds to assess the situation, react and avoid collision (or as you guys should say quoting your own academic material, apply the DECIDE model). My '69 Mini, being the 750cc version cruises around 54.16 kts, or more appropriately 65mph. That would give me roughly 10.7 seconds to cover the same distance. Now, since I have quite some experience in my Mini, I am confident I have enough time to even stop the little mighty car.
Cheers
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Lots of new people popping up due to this thread.
Very interesting.
Very interesting.
That's exactly what he is. And if there is any justice in this world, he'll be a... One hit wonder!
Stick and Rudder
New Member
From what I hear, he is protected by "Zeus" himself, so I'm sure there will be no justice. I'm also told that your risk factor has just increased by 2 with the purchase of 2 Citation III's....and what about these Extra 300's on the horizon? Is that another rumor or factual information? Who in the H*ll is going to fly those? I don't think anyone that works there, with a couple of exceptions, would meet insurance requirements for those either.
One thing for sure, your Citation pilots will get a lot of practice with the 700 additional students arriving there this year (what a joke)!
:rotfl:
Let's do the math on that one: 700 students X 20 hours each = 14000 hours divided by 4 pilots = 3500 hours each. Now add the additional 500 students you have there already and you increase this number by 2500 giving you a total of 6000 hours for each pilot!!!
Talk about "Jet Careers", PanAm is the place to be, providing you survive!! In all seriousness; good luck, guys, and thanks for shedding some light on this incident!
One thing for sure, your Citation pilots will get a lot of practice with the 700 additional students arriving there this year (what a joke)!
:rotfl:
Let's do the math on that one: 700 students X 20 hours each = 14000 hours divided by 4 pilots = 3500 hours each. Now add the additional 500 students you have there already and you increase this number by 2500 giving you a total of 6000 hours for each pilot!!!
Talk about "Jet Careers", PanAm is the place to be, providing you survive!! In all seriousness; good luck, guys, and thanks for shedding some light on this incident!
ACADEMY HOWARDS III
The questions we asked Howard Davenport, General Manager, have not been answered, and no productive discussion has been established. We have therefore tried to verify the rumours and our presumptions to answer those questions ourselves.
Please let us know if you find any mistake in this email.
We have not been able to answer all the questions we asked Howard, because it is impossible to verify everything.
Nonetheless, our researches show a very alarming situation.
We have found out the following:
- Five months ago, three instructors were sent to the USA for King Air training. Those three instructors did meet the requirements that had been set by Patrick Murphy and the Chief Flying Instructor.
- Of the four instructors who were sent to the USA for Citation training, at least three don’t meet the requirements that had been set for the King Air (see our previous email).
- A minimum requirement list still has not been written for the Citation.
- There are obvious signs of incompetence, favouritism, and concerns for SAFETY, concerning the selection process.
1 - Favouritism: one of the instructors selected is the girlfriend of the person in “charge” of the selection. She has less flight experience than 80% of the flight instructors in Panam.
One of the instructors who have been trained on the Citation (Justin) has not started his new duties, and yet he is earning a monthly salary of $4000, which is $500 more than what the Chief Flight Instructor (Toshi) is earning. Toshi is also a high performance instructor.
Two other high performance instructors (David and Thomas ) are earning $2700.
2 - Incompetence: The position of high performance instructor on the Citation has not been advertised.
There has not been interviews, nor selection for the position of high performance instructor on the Citation.
No selection criteria have been applied regarding the experience of the persons selected.
The greatest secrecy has always prevailed concerning the selection process and the identity of the “candidates”. The names of the instructors chosen were officially revealed in an email from Howard on the 30th of November 2006, when they were already in the USA.
There still not has been an official announcement, concerning the two instructors currently in training in the USA, Alan and Sanae.
Safety: The Chief Flight Instructor has not been involved in the selection process, which is a very unusual practise.
Apart from Simon, four others have been selected. Simon has got 4000 hours on Citation aircraft. As for the other four, they have less than 1500 hours total flight time, on light piston aircraft. At least three of them do not meet the requirements set by Panam for the King Air. There are no minimums set for the Citation.
Two of those chosen are quite preoccupying:
Sanae has got 800 hours on light piston aircraft.
Allan Chen has got 480 hours TOTAL flight time. He has got very little multi engine experience, apart from what is required to obtain his multi engine license. He has got no multi engine dual given time. This is unprecedented in the history of aviation. Never has anybody become a JET instructor with less than 500 hours total flight time, very little time multi engine PIC, even during times of war, in the armed forces.
The situation is alarming.
We ask for an immediate change of policies of all persons concerned, for the sake of flight safety, and for an impartial management of the Panam personnel.
If the situation does not change, we would first notify the highest managers of Panam, and if necessary, we would inform the aviation community around the world through all available means and lastly, the CAAC and the ICAO.
The questions we asked Howard Davenport, General Manager, have not been answered, and no productive discussion has been established. We have therefore tried to verify the rumours and our presumptions to answer those questions ourselves.
Please let us know if you find any mistake in this email.
We have not been able to answer all the questions we asked Howard, because it is impossible to verify everything.
Nonetheless, our researches show a very alarming situation.
We have found out the following:
- Five months ago, three instructors were sent to the USA for King Air training. Those three instructors did meet the requirements that had been set by Patrick Murphy and the Chief Flying Instructor.
- Of the four instructors who were sent to the USA for Citation training, at least three don’t meet the requirements that had been set for the King Air (see our previous email).
- A minimum requirement list still has not been written for the Citation.
- There are obvious signs of incompetence, favouritism, and concerns for SAFETY, concerning the selection process.
1 - Favouritism: one of the instructors selected is the girlfriend of the person in “charge” of the selection. She has less flight experience than 80% of the flight instructors in Panam.
One of the instructors who have been trained on the Citation (Justin) has not started his new duties, and yet he is earning a monthly salary of $4000, which is $500 more than what the Chief Flight Instructor (Toshi) is earning. Toshi is also a high performance instructor.
Two other high performance instructors (David and Thomas ) are earning $2700.
2 - Incompetence: The position of high performance instructor on the Citation has not been advertised.
There has not been interviews, nor selection for the position of high performance instructor on the Citation.
No selection criteria have been applied regarding the experience of the persons selected.
The greatest secrecy has always prevailed concerning the selection process and the identity of the “candidates”. The names of the instructors chosen were officially revealed in an email from Howard on the 30th of November 2006, when they were already in the USA.
There still not has been an official announcement, concerning the two instructors currently in training in the USA, Alan and Sanae.
Safety: The Chief Flight Instructor has not been involved in the selection process, which is a very unusual practise.
Apart from Simon, four others have been selected. Simon has got 4000 hours on Citation aircraft. As for the other four, they have less than 1500 hours total flight time, on light piston aircraft. At least three of them do not meet the requirements set by Panam for the King Air. There are no minimums set for the Citation.
Two of those chosen are quite preoccupying:
Sanae has got 800 hours on light piston aircraft.
Allan Chen has got 480 hours TOTAL flight time. He has got very little multi engine experience, apart from what is required to obtain his multi engine license. He has got no multi engine dual given time. This is unprecedented in the history of aviation. Never has anybody become a JET instructor with less than 500 hours total flight time, very little time multi engine PIC, even during times of war, in the armed forces.
The situation is alarming.
We ask for an immediate change of policies of all persons concerned, for the sake of flight safety, and for an impartial management of the Panam personnel.
If the situation does not change, we would first notify the highest managers of Panam, and if necessary, we would inform the aviation community around the world through all available means and lastly, the CAAC and the ICAO.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
WOW. That's scary!!!!
traffic_conflict
New Member
Yeah, do not forget FAA and NTSB. After all the pilot involved in the incident is a US citizen with a US (FAA) license. I doubt the incident has been reported to the FSDO representative for the pacific region.
Mentioning the 3 aircraft crshed in less than two years of opeation at BPIAA could also help to focus on the topic.
PWMURPHY
Well-Known Member
Having left Beijing PanAm on January 25th, I no longer have "a dog in this fight" so to speak. However, I do believe the use of real names in the thread is inappropriate without the permission of those pilots. Management, though, I feel are "fair game". I would ask Doug and the moderators to take a look at that.
On another topic, I am back in the USA after spending nearly 2 weeks with my family in the Philippines. Spending time with a 9 year old and 13 year does bring one back quickly to the reality of the world outside aviation.
Pat Murphy
On another topic, I am back in the USA after spending nearly 2 weeks with my family in the Philippines. Spending time with a 9 year old and 13 year does bring one back quickly to the reality of the world outside aviation.
Pat Murphy
Toonces
Well-Known Member
I'm with Pat. Naming names on the internet isn't cool. I noticed you left your name out of your post and your profile "Afraid". If you feel it's that bad there then why not leave? I worked there and agree that they have issues, but if I were one of those guys you attempted to embarrass publicly I would wanna kick your ass. Blame management, not your fellow instructors for bad descisions about who flies what.
PWMURPHY
Well-Known Member
I will add a couple of comments as an "outsider."
One, the proper venue for complaints about the school would be to the Chinese CAAC. This recent incident and the others cited happened in China under the rules of the CAACs Part 91, 141, or 61. I certainly believe the FAA will tell you it is outside their jurisdiction.
I believe, however, that under both FAA and CAAC regulations the only legal requirement to be PIC in a CJ1 would be a private pilot certificate with the appropriate ratings including a type rating. We can debate from now until doomsday the "appropriate" amount of flight time for someone to be deemed safe. That is, btw, the same debate happening in regional airlines regarding the right "minimum" time for an FO which seems to be heading for new lows, at least in recent time. The answer, in many cases and in my opinion to how much time is enough, depends on the quality of the training and the underlying ability of the pilot.
Another good discussion topic for this thread might be hazardous attitudes. I would submit we all exhibit some of them and much of our energy spent questioning the ability of others might be better spent examining our own shortcomings and attempting to overcome those.
There also appears to be an underlying problem at BPIAA involving lack of communication between management and instructors and resorting to internet bulletin boards is not going to solve that.
Pat Murphy
One, the proper venue for complaints about the school would be to the Chinese CAAC. This recent incident and the others cited happened in China under the rules of the CAACs Part 91, 141, or 61. I certainly believe the FAA will tell you it is outside their jurisdiction.
I believe, however, that under both FAA and CAAC regulations the only legal requirement to be PIC in a CJ1 would be a private pilot certificate with the appropriate ratings including a type rating. We can debate from now until doomsday the "appropriate" amount of flight time for someone to be deemed safe. That is, btw, the same debate happening in regional airlines regarding the right "minimum" time for an FO which seems to be heading for new lows, at least in recent time. The answer, in many cases and in my opinion to how much time is enough, depends on the quality of the training and the underlying ability of the pilot.
Another good discussion topic for this thread might be hazardous attitudes. I would submit we all exhibit some of them and much of our energy spent questioning the ability of others might be better spent examining our own shortcomings and attempting to overcome those.
There also appears to be an underlying problem at BPIAA involving lack of communication between management and instructors and resorting to internet bulletin boards is not going to solve that.
Pat Murphy
traffic_conflict
New Member
Hey Toonces, Aren't you one of those runners who left PanAm without giving any notice and took the first flight out of China just because you had an interview in the US? Guess who wanted to kick you in the ass at that time?
I have the feeling you didn't stay here long enough to fully understand this place and its characters.