Naval Air Careers and Peculiarities

[mjg407]

Naval Air Peculiarities. Mike D and I were chatting and I thought maybe it would benefit everyone to kind of talk about some of the unique items of a career as a Naval Aviator. Please if anyone has anything else to add, chime in.

It used to be everyone starts in AI (aviation indoc) down in Pcola, where you learn about Navigation, aero, etc, and do fun stuff like boxing, water survival, and the obstacle course. From their you chose (and the Navy chooses) where you go for primary training, which is either Whiting Field, or Corpus Christi texas. There you learn how to fly, emergencies, Form, Aerobatics, spins, Basic Instruments, advanced Instruments... etc. Then you pick what you want to do, and it boils down to what the Navy needs, where you stack up agains the competition, and a quality spread. (Pick Jets, Helos, Multi-Engine, or E2/C2). You go on to advanced and at the conclusion you get your wings.

I'll tailor this to my particular choice. I then went to the P-3 RAG or FRS (Fleet Replacement Squadron). At this point you have roughly 200 hours or so of total time. Six months of time you learn P-3 systems (in depth) about 50 hours of flight time, and qualified as a P-3 Copilot (Formerly known as a 3P). You visit SERE school on your way to the squadron, and you arrive at the squadron. Navy/Marine Corps squadrons have both the maintenance and ops in combined. You get assigned your first job which is usually a branch officer position in maintenance. (Maintenance units from smallest to largest are as follows: Branch (like electricians) Division (Like Avionics/Armament) then Department. The average P-3 squadron has about 180-200 maintenance guys, and a wardroom of 30 pilots and 30 NFOs, and should be 8 aircraft. You continue to study, and around the 12th month you do an Oral Systems board (3 hours) and your initial NATOPS (sic Type ride) check in the P-3. During this time you do 12 sims and 12 training flights. The whole squadron deploys for 6 months at some time during your tour. You are typed, but not signing for the aircraft. Six to 12 months later another 6 sims/flights, and you take your mission board, which is a grueling 6 hours or so learning all the operational stuff.

So after about 36 months you are done with your first tour. Ideally you made Instructor Pilot, and top of the pyramid is if you became the squadron check airman. You get your final ranking among your peers, and based on that you are encouraged to follow a certain career path. Best choices career wise aren't usually the most fun. FRS instructor, Admirals Aid, Detailer, are the top choices. Next is Training Command (T-34, C-12). At one point overseas staff jobs were ranked high as well. This is called your first shore tour, and it's about 24-30 months.

From the first shore tour, it's time to go back to a sea tour, well it's not going to be flying. It is expected to be disassociated (IE not with your unit), and most likely it's going to be shooter on a carier, carrier staff, admirals aid on the carrier, you get the point). This another two years.

From there you get ready for your department head tour in a squadron. Head back to the FRS for retraining, and show up for the DH tour at your squadron. Requalify, and shoot for one of two jobs, either Maintenance Officer or Operations Officer, if you don't get one of those two jobs, the future of promotion is slim to none. (I was the MO of my squadron and our Maintenance Department was about 350 bubbas). Expect one 6 month deployment during this one too. It's a footrace between the OPS O and MO for the #1 ranking overall. The #1 guy has a shot of being a CO of a squadron, the #2 guy will make O-5 but no shot at command.

From there if you are the #1 guy, you are going to be expected to "not take the pack off" and take a hard fill job. (Overseas, Ship, etc). #2 guy chances of a flying job are slim, I was lucky enough to keep flying. Also, lately you can expect at least one IA (Individual Augmentee) which is one year to 18 months in theater.

 

[mjg407]

I should add that Pilots, NFO's, Submariners, SEALS, and Ship Drivers all fall under the category of Unrestricted Line Officer, so for promotion, they all compete against each other.

 

[MikeD]

Great write up! Very informative, and really builds on what we've been conversing about in PM. AF is similar, just with different terminology and available jobs.

Does the Navy still have:

1. Flying LDOs? Guys that stay flying with no desire for command, but won't likely rise above O-4

2. The NAVCAD program.....Naval Aviation Cadet where you can get commissioned and go to flight school without a college degree?

Can many "additional duty" jobs held by pilots, also be done by NFOs? IE- Carrier shooter, ships company, arresting gear officer, LSO, etc?

 

[mjg407]

Great write up! Very informative, and really builds on what we've been conversing about in PM. AF is similar, just with different terminology and available jobs.

Does the Navy still have:

1. Flying LDOs? Guys that stay flying with no desire for command, but won't likely rise above O-4

2. The NAVCAD program.....Naval Aviation Cadet where you can get commissioned and go to flight school without a college degree?

Can many "additional duty" jobs held by pilots, also be done by NFOs? IE- Carrier shooter, ships company, arresting gear officer, LSO, etc?

NAVCAD died a few years ago. Just as I was getting out they began to discuss the flying WO, the ALDO concept died a while ago to. What happened in about 2000, the Navy couldn't keep enough pilots in, and with the T-notch years, they saw there would be a shortage of pilots in the system, so they allowed some guys to not do a DH tour and just do training command (kind of like the flying LDO's). This was also the time when the AF had the huge bonus and Navy guys were jumping ship. So the Navy matched the bonus with the condition you did a DH tour. Of course 9-11 happened and due to "patriotism" the Navy had pilots coming back in that had resigned.

 

[mjg407]

Oops, missed rest of it. Yeah the shooter jobs, ships company are for both the Pilots and the NFO's. Also, at some point to make O-4 now you need JPME as well. For me, the OPS O was a NFO, who did a shooter tour, did a JPME tour, had his masters, me, all I did was fly the plane for 4 tours...

 

[///AMG]

Does the Navy still have:

1. Flying LDOs? Guys that stay flying with no desire for command, but won't likely rise above O-4

No such program anymore....believe that died sometime in the 1990's (at least for new fills).

2. The NAVCAD program.....Naval Aviation Cadet where you can get commissioned and go to flight school without a college degree?

Also died sometime in the 80's or early 90's. I believe it had been on hiatus before that until Pres. Reagan's push for big Navy, and then subsequently dissolved once again. My pops was an original 1950's NAVCAD and said it was a great program if you could handle not actually being commissioned until you winged.

Good post mjg, most of your info is still accurate. Only difference I know of now off the top of my head is that you now no longer select E2/C2 track out of primary. You can select Tailhook from primary, and then after phase 1 of T-45 school (roughly half way through), they grab a small portion of students for E2/C2, and they subsequently complete the program and wing in the advanced multiengine syllabus after a CQ syllabus in the T-45.

 

[Ian_J]

Are there any programs in the Navy similar to the Air Forces ALO program?

Of all the ALOs I met, I both felt sorry for and respected the hell out of those guys. For all the inter-service joking that goes on, the ALOs were always willing to get down and dirty and live the rough life with us without complaint. Plus, their stories were always pretty cool, too.

 

[MikeD]

Are there any programs in the Navy similar to the Air Forces ALO program?

Of all the ALOs I met, I both felt sorry for and respected the hell out of those guys. For all the inter-service joking that goes on, the ALOs were always willing to get down and dirty and live the rough life with us without complaint. Plus, their stories were always pretty cool, too.

Thats what I did when I was in A-10s. The Navy doesn't do it, but the Marines have ANGLICO (Air and Naval Gunfire Liason) units that do FAC work for both air as well as naval gunfire. Many Marine aviators/flight officers get this as a non-flying gig between flying assignments, just as the USAF pilots/navs do..

 

[MikeD]

Wheres's land survival/SERE school for USN/USMC aviation personnel? They don't do the same Fairchild program the AF does, do they?

For Ian: On the Chinook, why are your enlisted Flight Engineers so named? Aren't they the same as crew chiefs you'd find on the Blackhawks or Hueys?

 

[Ian_J]

For Ian: On the Chinook, why are your enlisted Flight Engineers so named? Aren't they the same as crew chiefs you'd find on the Blackhawks or Hueys?

They're so named because the size/complexity of the Chinook require a more highly trained crew-chief. In some mission-profiles, only one crew-member is required in the back but that person has to be a "flight engineer." Most mission profiles require a flight engineer and a crew chief on board.

An FE and a CE have the same MOS, but the FEs are more senior and have completed additional training programs. Also, an FE must pass a check ride with a Flight Engineer Instructor.

 

[Ian_J]

Thats what I did when I was in A-10s.

Interesting! Every ALO I met was a -15 driver so I thought that's the only ones who did it. I always wondered why I didn't run into any ALOs who were A-10 drivers considering CAS is your bread and butter.

How'd you like slumming it with the Army? And what unit were you attached to?

 

[MikeD]

Interesting! Every ALO I met was a -15 driver so I thought that's the only ones who did it. I always wondered why I didn't run into any ALOs who were A-10 drivers considering CAS is your bread and butter.

How'd you like slumming it with the Army? And what unit were you attached to?

You fina alot of single-seat -15 drivers as ALOs, especially ALOs remote-duty in Korea, because thats the easiest and fastest way for them to get a ALFA (additional duty) tour out of the way and get back into the cockpit. Since the -15C guys don't have a flying remote duty tour where they can check that square (unlike the A-10 and F-16, which have Korea bases), by being a remote ALO....they check both the remote and ALFA square in a single 12 month tour and have it behind them. In comparison, if an -15C guy went to Training command to go be a T-38 IP, for example, he'd be looking at 3 months or so of Pilot Instructor school, and a 3 year assignment......out of the F-15 cockipit for 39 or so months. It's just interesting, because they have nil CAS background, and most don't want anything to do with it anyway (there are some high-speed ones). If a guy volunteers for jump-ALO (go to Army jump school for assignment to one of the Airborne units), it's also a 1 year tour IIRC. Other regular ALO tours are the standard 3 years.

As ALOs, you'll find them at Batallion, Brigade, Division, and Corps level; staffed by O-3, O-4, O-5, and O-6 respectively. Females, last I heard, were restricted to Brigade or higher (again, IIRC).

I was a Batallion ALO for my entire time in the A-10 (its an additional duty for us). I loved it...going out to the Gila Bend bombing range for about a week a month to control air strikes......as well as cook steaks out in the middle of the range and shoot at stuff with small arms.

Working with the Army was interesting though. They're very rank-conscious in their Officer corps. I was at Ft Irwin one time taking part in an exercise there. I hadn't met my FSO or his FOs (my direct counterpart....he for arty, me for air), but the TO&E said he was "Captain John Smith" (don't remember the exact surname, but bear with me). So I show up to the Batallion TOC...actually just 4 M577s backed up together with a tarp in the center, and I see a guy in BDUs......Captain rank on one collar......arty crossed-tubes on the other......"Smith" nametape on the frontside. Must be my guy. I walk up to him (he's by himself) and introduce myself (I"m a fellow O-3). "John, is it? How you doing....MikeD...I'm the head FAC". He looks at me with disgust, and replies. "Yeah....hey uhhh CAPTAIN....we don't use first names around here, we use rank and surname, GOT IT?" My reply: "No prob John, let me get my guys situated, and I'll get back to you."

Later on, during an officer meeting, he began inquiring if I'd gone to the AF Academy (lol....am a mustang, so no respect there lol), and asked me my date of rank. Date of rank? He was trying to establish rank among Captains; so I told him "....I don't know....Tueday, or something like that," which further pissed him off; to which I was now enjoying.

Made the whole clusterfreak operation go that much quicker....me being able to piss him off at every turn. Esp when his arty (simulated, of course) had numerous short rounds resulting in blue-on-blue.....something more to rib him with....."Hey John? When your tubes can cease killing our own guys for a few mins, can I get a shift or a check-fire from you? I'd like to run some of my air in from the northeast to hit XX positions......."

 

[///AMG]

Later on, during an officer meeting, he began inquiring if I'd gone to the AF Academy (lol....am a mustang, so no respect there lol), and asked me my date of rank. Date of rank? He was trying to establish rank among Captains; so I told him "....I don't know....Tueday, or something like that," which further pissed him off; to which I was now enjoying.

Wow, that sounds painful. They don't obey the "1 up 1 down" rule I see

 

[Ian_J]

Working with the Army was interesting though. They're very rank-conscious in their Officer corps. I was at Ft Irwin one time taking part in an exercise there. I hadn't met my FSO or his FOs (my direct counterpart....he for arty, me for air), but the TO&E said he was "Captain John Smith" (don't remember the exact surname, but bear with me). So I show up to the Batallion TOC...actually just 4 M577s backed up together with a tarp in the center, and I see a guy in BDUs......Captain rank on one collar......arty crossed-tubes on the other......"Smith" nametape on the frontside. Must be my guy. I walk up to him (he's by himself) and introduce myself (I"m a fellow O-3). "John, is it? How you doing....MikeD...I'm the head FAC". He looks at me with disgust, and replies. "Yeah....hey uhhh CAPTAIN....we don't use first names around here, we use rank and surname, GOT IT?" My reply: "No prob John, let me get my guys situated, and I'll get back to you."

Later on, during an officer meeting, he began inquiring if I'd gone to the AF Academy (lol....am a mustang, so no respect there lol), and asked me my date of rank. Date of rank? He was trying to establish rank among Captains; so I told him "....I don't know....Tueday, or something like that," which further pissed him off; to which I was now enjoying.

Made the whole clusterfreak operation go that much quicker....me being able to piss him off at every turn. Esp when his arty (simulated, of course) had numerous short rounds resulting in blue-on-blue.....something more to rib him with....."Hey John? When your tubes can cease killing our own guys for a few mins, I'd like to run some of my air in from the northeast......."

Gotta love d-bags like that. Most of the Army Officer Corps is first names for like ranks. Sounds like a good time though... although some of the worst weeks of my life were spent at Irwin.

 

[MikeD]

Gotta love d-bags like that. Most of the Army Officer Corps is first names for like ranks. Sounds like a good time though... although some of the worst weeks of my life were spent at Irwin.

I've also noticed that ground unit COs....for example Batallion COs....who aren't aviation, tend to look at Blackhawks, for example, as nothing more than Deuce-and-a-halfs that are tooling around at 50 AGL. And helo pilots as nothing more than infantry at 50AGL. Same for the Apache being nothing more than an arty tube in the same vein.

 

[Ian_J]

I've also noticed that ground unit COs....for example Batallion COs....who aren't aviation, tend to look at Blackhawks, for example, as nothing more than Deuce-and-a-halfs that are tooling around at 50 AGL. And helo pilots as nothing more than infantry at 50AGL. Same for the Apache being nothing more than an arty tube in the same vein.

That is very accurate. And in a sense it's pretty accurate. The ground commander owns the battlefield and aviation is just on of his many assets he can use to shape the battle.

It was pretty fun though attending Air Coordination Meetings and telling an Infantry O-6 his idea to use a company of Chinooks (16 birds) to carry 528 troops (33 seats per bird) wasn't going to work.

"Sir, you can only expect 75% of those birds to work at any given time and you might want to plan on a spare or two in case one of the working ones break. And yes, we have 33 seats but two of them are taken by crew members... and then there's the cooler to think about... )

 

[mjg407]

Wheres's land survival/SERE school for USN/USMC aviation personnel? They don't do the same Fairchild program the AF does, do they?

For Ian: On the Chinook, why are your enlisted Flight Engineers so named? Aren't they the same as crew chiefs you'd find on the Blackhawks or Hueys?

There's one out of San Diego and one out of Brunswick, but not sure what will happen with BRAC closing Brunswick. We use Advanced SERE at Fairchild.

 

[mjg407]

Thats what I did when I was in A-10s. The Navy doesn't do it, but the Marines have ANGLICO (Air and Naval Gunfire Liason) units that do FAC work for both air as well as naval gunfire. Many Marine aviators/flight officers get this as a non-flying gig between flying assignments, just as the USAF pilots/navs do..

Lol, when I was originally getting out I was going to be an ALO, but the Guard wanted me to go for further med evaluation on my back even though I just had my sep and annual flight physical with no waivers..... :banghead:

 

[Hacker15e]

You fina alot of single-seat -15 drivers as ALOs, especially ALOs remote-duty in Korea, because thats the easiest and fastest way for them to get a ALFA (additional duty) tour out of the way and get back into the cockpit.

Don't forget that the F-15E community also doesn't have a widespread flying remote -- there are like three guys in Saudi Arabia at a time, and that's it.

So, when someone says "15 guy" in an ALFA tour they may not just be referring to a single-seat puke that can't even spell CAS.

Working with the Army was interesting though. They're very rank-conscious in their Officer corps.

I had a VERY similar incident when I went to a joint school once. On the first day, I went to my assigned seat and right next to me was an Army Captain all ready sitting down. So, I put my stuff down on the desk and introduced myself, sticking out my hand toward him. He turned around, looked at my shoulders, and the first words out of his mouth were, "what's your date of rank, Captain?"

The funny part is that the rest of our exchange went very similar to yours:

Me: "Oh, I dunno, January something."

Him: "Well, I'd prefer if you addressed me as 'Captain' or 'sir'."

Me: "Okay, dude, whatever. On the positive side we'll know who the command order is in this class when we start taking battlefield casualties and those Lt Cols and Majors over there die, eh?"

 

[MikeD]

Don't forget that the F-15E community also doesn't have a widespread flying remote -- there are like three guys in Saudi Arabia at a time, and that's it.

So, when someone says "15 guy" in an ALFA tour they may not just be referring to a single-seat puke that can't even spell CAS.

That's right, I'd forgotten about that one. Speaking of....do you guys have any sort of flying remote/military assistance/ALFA involved with the ROKAF F-15Ks?

I had a VERY similar incident when I went to a joint school once. On the first day, I went to my assigned seat and right next to me was an Army Captain all ready sitting down. So, I put my stuff down on the desk and introduced myself, sticking out my hand toward him. He turned around, looked at my shoulders, and the first words out of his mouth were, "what's your date of rank, Captain?"

The funny part is that the rest of our exchange went very similar to yours:

Me: "Oh, I dunno, January something."

Him: "Well, I'd prefer if you addressed me as 'Captain' or 'sir'."

Me: "Okay, dude, whatever. On the positive side we'll know who the command order is in this class when we start taking battlefield casualties and those Lt Cols and Majors over there die, eh?"

Freaking Army....I guess they breed them that way? Have even seen 1LTs expecting to be saluted and addressed as "sir" by 2LTs. Of course, I've seen that with some of our own shoes too.