NASCAR driver and family in plane crash

T/O w/FSII said:
A lot of you guys are hung up on the ex airline pilot part but forgetting the only reason why a ton of retired guys are still alive is because of 121.

Take all the safety nets away and the crazy wild pilots get to be crazy and wild in the 91 world and bam.

91 gigs like this have zero written FOM, or anything that could be called a manual. Literally nothing on paper.

And just wait until you find out the mx history of a 1980’s jet that was on its last owner until the scrap yard.
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I don’t disagree at all. However, knowing that he was prior AF and retired from Delta, he at least was not inexperienced and at least knew the right way to do things.
 
Kingairer said:
I don’t disagree at all. However, knowing that he was prior AF and retired from Delta, he at least was not inexperienced and at least knew the right way to do things.
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One thing I noticed when I started flying with the 30+ year airline career guys is they very often chaffed under newer procedures and standards and yearned for the days of yesteryear when they could cut corners or fly closer to the edge. They longed to be unencumbered by "stupid new limits because young pilots these days can't handle it" when, in reality, it was those older crews flying to close to the performance edge that caused those restrictions in the first place. A great many of them did things improperly because "that's how we did it when I got on this fleet in 1999..." and don't keep up with policy and procedure changes. They aren't the best at recognizing that their long, safe career came not because of their great skill but because the people writing the paychecks had a far better appreciation of the skill level of the average pilot. These are the same guys who spent their life thinking they knew better than everyone else and instead of listening to experts invested all their money in Iraqi Dinars and four ex-wives and have to work to make the alimony payments. Good decision making skills are not what I generally expect when I read accident and incident reports that talk about the "retired airline pilot" unless it's some guy having a heart attack in his custom home built or million dollar Cirrus.
 
MikeD said:
It’s difficult to tell fire patterns of items not completely destroyed from a video with a few angles, without being on scene and examining all angles, internal and external. The impact with the approach lighting system seems to have done a large portion of fuselage damage, possibly more than ground impact itself, what with the right wing being mostly gone. Survival wise, depending on the damage from impact, the right side emergency exit may have not been able to be opened, assuming anyone survived conscious and knew how to open it. Even so, either exit would've been surrounded by the pool fuel fire around the aircraft sadly, making even an escape likely not a survivable event.

The Statesville Fire Dept does have a CFR truck at SVH, but it isn’t manned. In the event of an aircraft incident, the first responding off-airport fire truck to arrive from station 2, cross-crews the CFR truck there with personnel from the Engine who are ARFF trained. Unfortunately, this incurs a delay in the response time if the fire crews don’t happen to be there at the airport from off-airport, which they normally would not be. This can be done, because SVH isn’t a 14 CFR 139 airport and has no requirement to have CFR vehicles; as it has no scheduled over 9 pax or unscheduled over 31 pax air carrier service. For airports that do have a singular CFR vehicle but with no requirement to have one, there is also no requirement for full-time manning, and thus a number of different methods of manning get utilized. Even some smaller airports with scheduled/unscheduled airline service, the CFR is only required to be manned during the time of arriving/departing air carrier aircraft.
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It has ever been so but, IMO, at the cost of lives. When seconds count long minutes are often lost.
 
Richman said:
From Citation pilot on another forum: You can have a single pilot authorization letter with that restriction on a certificate.
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I wouldn’t think he would be flying around illegally buuut…..wouldn’t be the first time I’ve seen it. Either way unless that guy had a fire under his feet there are some choices he made that I don’t fully understand.

Also if you get the letter why not just remove the restriction from your certificate?
 
Bob Ridpath said:
It has ever been so but, IMO, at the cost of lives. When seconds count long minutes are often lost.
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It’s all money. Especially a smaller city department. And especially when the capability they have, has no requirement for it there. Some airports on these situations where they have a truck that is only required for the times airline service is departing/arriving, will have persons trained on the truck, but who normally do other things at the airport during their day, and only man the truck during the required times or during an emergency. At other times, it’s unmanned. Also unnamed after airport office operating hours. Not optimal in my opinion, but better than no manning at all or no truck. Some airports have a combined airport police dept / ARFF fire department; one day you’re working police stuff, the next you're sitting at the fire station. There’s a famous picture of one of those passenger exit-opening events while taxiing or similar, and the person was caught on the ramp by fire/police, so you see a firefighter in bunker gear with the guy on the ground cuffing him up.

Unlike an engine/ladder/ambo, CFR trucks are the least used fire vehicles in any department, and they only really pay for themselves, so to speak, when they are needed. Ironically, private contract ARFF services is common at a number of large airports in the US, as the city would rather spend a flat fee, and spend their fire dept money on things that actually run calls day to day.
 
MikeD said:
It’s all money. Especially a smaller city department. And especially when the capability they have, has no requirement for it there. Some airports on these situations where they have a truck that is only required for the times airline service is departing/arriving, will have persons trained on the truck, but who normally do other things at the airport during their day, and only man the truck during the requires times or during an emergency. At other times, it’s unmanned. Also unnamed after airport office operating hours. Not optimal in my opinion, but better than no manning at all or no truck. Some airports have a combined airport police dept / ARFF fire department; one day you’re working police stuff, the next you're sitting at the fire station. There’s a famous picture of one of those passenger exit-opening events while taxiing or similar, and the person was caught on the ramp by fire/police, so you see a firefighter in bunker gear with the guy on the ground cuffing him up.

Unlike an engine/ladder/ambo, CFR trucks are the least used fire vehicles in any department, and they only really pay for themselves, so to speak, when they are needed. Ironically, private contract ARFF services is common at a number of large airports in the US, as the city would rather spend a flat fee, and spend their fire dept money on things that actually run calls day to day.
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Would more jet operations lead to more money for CFR? A lot of the NASCAR drivers live in the area and own jets but as I recall from my internal wayback machine when my brother worked for a few teams the majority of them kept their airplanes at Concord Regional.
 
Fixtur said:
Saw that on Blanco. Sure, makes sense, but....so what? That's a shredded engine and a lot of noise but it should still fly like an airplane.
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I don’t want to speculate on this accident but…that brings me back to my days doing company checks in the G36/G58. If the pilot didn’t check that I’d secured the door…it somehow seemed to never quite latch right. Even if they checked it the silly thing liked to pop open for, like, no reason.
 
Fixtur said:
Saw that on Blanco. Sure, makes sense, but....so what? That's a shredded engine and a lot of noise but it should still fly like an airplane.
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Been told that an open baggage door on the front of a straight wing Citation causes significant vibration and partial control loss.

Combine that with a single engine approach and the normal memorized OEI power settings are no longer sufficient.

Get low/slow short final, add power to compensate.... MCA rollover

MCA might be increased with an open baggage door. As might a door partially or completely blocking the engine

7 people and baggage with the fuel and reserves for their flight might put them at or near MGTOW

Each problem isn't a killer, all combined reduces your margin a whole lot.
 
Kingairer said:
I don’t disagree at all. However, knowing that he was prior AF and retired from Delta, he at least was not inexperienced and at least knew the right way to do things.
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I'll say that some retired airline pilots skills have degraded over time. Many times they slip through the corporate aviation cracks and end up on a flight deck that don't really have any business being on.
 
DropTank said:
Been told that an open baggage door on the front of a straight wing Citation causes significant vibration and partial control loss.

Combine that with a single engine approach and the normal memorized OEI power settings are no longer sufficient.

Get low/slow short final, add power to compensate.... MCA rollover

MCA might be increased with an open baggage door. As might a door partially or completely blocking the engine

7 people and baggage with the fuel and reserves for their flight might put them at or near MGTOW

Each problem isn't a killer, all combined reduces your margin a whole lot.
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I watched the infamous "Citation Baggage Door" accident at KVNY happen right in front of me. I was working on the back ramp and watched the airplane take off on 34L, turned my attention back to my work, and when I looked back up there a cloud of black smoke just north of the airport. I think that was a CJ-2 and not a 550 though.
 
yea, wouldn’t be the first time a nose baggage door brought down a straight wing citation. There’s a reason why you are supposed to both double latch, and lock the bag door. Same as the CJ2. Same airplane forward of the wing.
 
knot4u said:
I watched the infamous "Citation Baggage Door" accident at KVNY happen right in front of me. I was working on the back ramp and watched the airplane take off on 34L, turned my attention back to my work, and when I looked back up there a cloud of black smoke just north of the airport. I think that was a CJ-2 and not a 550 though.
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Yeah... I always figured it was a non event.
A colleague set me straight with a powerful story about an Citation Encore he flew.
 
knot4u said:
Would more jet operations lead to more money for CFR? A lot of the NASCAR drivers live in the area and own jets but as I recall from my internal wayback machine when my brother worked for a few teams the majority of them kept their airplanes at Concord Regional.
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I would’ve figured with all the money flowing at the airport vis a vis the tenants, that it would’ve been donation funded for full time staffing for the ARFF truck. Although it’s possible none of the tenants knew the arrangement there. I’d have figured the fire dept itself would’ve brought it up.

Ironically; we have seen this problem happen before. The 19 November 1996 ground collision at Quincy Municipal Airport, Illinois between a landing United Express / Lakes Air Flt 5925 B-1900C and a departing Beech A90 King Air at the intersection of two runways at that airport. The King Air burst into flames, killing its two occupants as they tried unsuccessfully to escape, while the 1900C caught fire on its right wing and right side fuselage. The Capt of the 1900C was alive and had her head and arm outside her cockpit window and were telling the two pilots who had run to the wreckage to get the main cabin door open. The door was unable to be opened either from the inside of the outside, and all 10 pax and the FO were found deceased near that exit, while the Capt eventually perished when fire shortly swept throughout the 1900C. From the fire truck aspect, Quincy airport had a small ARFF truck, similar to the ones on my company, but it was only manned by one Quincy FD firefighter from the time before/after a departure and arrival of an airline aircraft of over 30 seats, which was the 14 CFR 139 requirement at that time (has since changed). As it was, the Quincy fire station was 10 miles / 15 minutes away from the airport, and it took that time for two dispatched engjne trucks to reach the airport. The small ARFF truck was activated also, but it was too late by that time and both aircraft were fully involved in fire.

KLB said:
I'll say that some retired airline pilots skills have degraded over time. Many times they slip through the corporate aviation cracks and end up on a flight deck that don't really have any business being on.
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Part of the problem there too is a form of a cultural shock in terms of aviation background. Many 121 pilots going to corporate, are likely not used to the amount of things they now have to do, that they didn’t have to prior, as it was taken care of for them or otherwise transparent to them. Even ex-Alaska pilots I’ve had come to the 121 supplemental i part time at, are shocked at having to maintain receipts for things to turn in with an expense sheet along with the flight sheet and pay sheet, and maintain a fuel purchase log and credit card charge log, doing our own weight and balance sheets, running our own ATOG numbers for temp reduction manually from a large book of airports, etc etc. it’s somewhat archaic, sure, but it’s how things are done here and it’s not something they’ve ever done, or not something they’ve done since they maybe flew 135 or such many, many moons prior.
 
BobDDuck said:
Is that a thing? I don't think I've ever flown a twin (even a light recip) that I memorized OEI power settings for.
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Each person learns differently.
Some go by profiles, others by feel. There's a million variations.

Profiles are scaffolding for the building of skills.
Once you have real skills, the scaffolding can fall away.

Also, people tend to revert when they reach task saturation.

Which is why... above all else... FTFA
 
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