!&#$'n EWR!!

CapnJim

CapnJim

Well-Known Member
Ok, afternoon delays trying to get to Newark are epidemic. I know LaGuardia and JFK are no exception, but it seems like Newark is worse than the other two. I've always been under the impression that it's simply a volume issue, exacerbated by any winds and weather, but the explanations on some days, (particulary those in which the entire eastern seaboard is calm and severe clear) don't seem to add up. Even LAX and ORD don't seem to have the trouble we do.
ATC gurus, can you give us a few words about EWR/LGA/JFK? Do I just need to have a Coke, a smile and shut the hell up, or are there other problems at play up here?
 
Can't speak for ATC, but I can say that passenger fares on shorter-notice flights (7 to 11 days) are noticeably lower into EWR than LGA or JFK. A lot more business people fly into EWR as a result, because NY is still accessible that way.
 
Many of the issues stem from having LGA and JFK so close. Sequencing arrivals and departures into those three very busy airports with such a close proximity has to be a headache.

I'm not so sure about LAX, but ORD only has MDW that's nearby and those two airports are further apart than EWR-LGA or LGA-JFK.
 
Talk to the people at the airlines that make the flight schedules. Despite the fact that even a mildly literate individual could look at the FAA's traffic command center website and find the maximum arrivals/departures per hour under ideal conditions, the airlines continue to schedule more flights than the airport can handle. Who designed the hub and spoke system? Go smack them too.
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
Talk to the people at the airlines that make the flight schedules. Despite the fact that even a mildly literate individual could look at the FAA's traffic command center website and find the maximum arrivals/departures per hour under ideal conditions, the airlines continue to schedule more flights than the airport can handle. Who designed the hub and spoke system? Go smack them too.
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:yeahthat:

Exactly. . .

Airline schedules do not help system capacity, only makes it worse. Not the FAA's fault, or any specific facility's fault. . . they just take what is given to them, and since the FAA has no balls to restrict airline's schedules this is only going to continue to get worse.
 
When I come in for my night shift at 8:30 and the 2:30 flight is taking off as I drive across the end of the runway......EWR SUCKS
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
Who designed the hub and spoke system? Go smack them too.
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Foot meet mouth!!

FedEx founder Fred Smith pioneered the hub and spoke model for overnight package delivery in the mid-1970s
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Source: Wikipedia

Hub and spoke has long been known as the most efficeint way to move the maximum amount cargo (either self loading or freight) from A to B. I doubt many people fly from Bangor, ME to Jacksonville, NC but using the hub and spoke system an airline/package company can serve both those destinations. It actually makes a lot of sense, even SWA uses a mini hub and spoke system. It just needs better implementation at this point.
 
Maybe what they can do to relieve stress is have flights leaving/arriving out of hubs at off peak times as well as pushes.

I see traffic here in PHX only leave in pushes. I'd think having off peak and peak arrivals/departures might open up the system more then only having peak arrival & departures.

This from an atc novice so take at face value!
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
Maybe what they can do to relieve stress is have flights leaving/arriving out of hubs at off peak times as well as pushes.

I see traffic here in PHX only leave in pushes. I'd think having off peak and peak arrivals/departures might open up the system more then only having peak arrival & departures.

This from an atc novice so take at face value!
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So how would that work?

The whole idea of the hub is that a bank of flights comes in from all over the place - people scurry from plane to plane in 30 minutes and then a bank of flights leaves to all those places. That's what lets people travel from Burlington, VT to Jacksonville, NC with either the same ease or the same frustration (depending on your point of view) as travelling from Boston to Atlanta.

If your planes arrive from all over the place on some inter-leaved schedule with the planes leaving inter-leaved between, people arriving from Burlington might find the next flight to Jacksonville leaves in 4 hours - and leaving aside the marketing aspects of that, having those people clutter up the airport is just untidy.

Never forget (as many airlines seem to do) that this is a service industry. Our priority is NOT the operation of aircraft, our priority is the transport of people.
 
EWR is busier than JFK and LGA combined....EWR has only one departure and one arrival runway...with the occasional 11/29 arrival from XJT, hence your delays....
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
I see traffic here in PHX only leave in pushes. I'd think having off peak and peak arrivals/departures might open up the system more then only having peak arrival & departures.
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United has tried to "de-peak" the arrivals/departures.

In 2005, the company depeaked its hub in Los Angeles through optimization of the schedule. This initiative reduced costs and increased efficiency, and, by allowing us to eliminate the remote United Express terminal, it also improved the customer experience. In 2006, the company will continue resource optimization and depeaking throughout the United system, beginning with San Francisco in the first quarter. The company plans to eliminate the remote United Express facility in San Francisco as well.
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Source

I don't know how it's working for them but the idea has promise - aside from the sarcastic remarks CFIse made (maybe he is upset he is the one sitting for 4 hours!) I think it could be handled in a way to not allow for pax to sit around for a long time. BUT, airplanes only make money when they are flying so having aircraft wait on the ground as well isn't such a good idea either.

Obviously the congestion problem is the pesky 50 seat RJ's. Trade those suckers in for the 90 seat versions and reduce frequency! And if you work for Doug Parker "the days of flying bigger airplanes for more pay" are over baby! :nana2: Sweet!!!
 
Most airlines have a hub-and-spoke system to a certain extent.
 
wheelsup said:
United has tried to "de-peak" the arrivals/departures.


Source

I don't know how it's working for them but the idea has promise - aside from the sarcastic remarks CFIse made (maybe he is upset he is the one sitting for 4 hours!) I think it could be handled in a way to not allow for pax to sit around for a long time. BUT, airplanes only make money when they are flying so having aircraft wait on the ground as well isn't such a good idea either.

Obviously the congestion problem is the pesky 50 seat RJ's. Trade those suckers in for the 90 seat versions and reduce frequency! And if you work for Doug Parker "the days of flying bigger airplanes for more pay" are over baby! :nana2: Sweet!!!
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Well I guess that my plan was a sound one!
 
wheelsup said:
Obviously the congestion problem is the pesky 50 seat RJ's. Trade those suckers in for the 90 seat versions and reduce frequency! And if you work for Doug Parker "the days of flying bigger airplanes for more pay" are over baby! :nana2: Sweet!!!
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Again - we're in the passenger transportation business, not the aircraft operation business.

Obviously we could solve a WHOLE lot of problems by upping the capacity of each plane and reducing the frequency. So let's say once a month we run a 747 in and out of Burlington, VT, that should take care of everything.

Behind price the second thing people look at it is departure time. That's why everybody leaves at 6:00AM out of bum-f!*k, KY. The flight that's scheduled to leave at 6:01AM doesn't get picked by people shopping on www.whatsthecheapestticketIcanbuy.com. So frequency is king.

Seriously - operating airlines would be a whole lot easier without the pesky customers and their stupid wants and desires. However - while there are airlines out there who do want to serve customers everybody else is going to get dragged kicking and screaming into the same position.

Eventually it all gets too much and the government gets involved. And of course that's always a thundering success whenever that happens.
 
n57flyguy said:
hahahaha, were you based there?
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No, it would have been fun though. I know some Piedmont peeps, and a boatload of gate agents (I'm gonna marry Tita when I turn 30 if I am still unattached! LOL). It always seems to be ground stopped or delayed, and thats when the party begins!
 
I've heard that EWR is notorious from alot of places. I feel sorry for those Continental pilots here at DAB. Almost every afternoon, I hear tower telling them "Newark just issued a hold...hold on the ramp..." I remember one night we went out on a night flight, and a Continental 737 was taxiing out, and they got the same call... tower told them they might as well shut down at the end of the runway, it's gonna be a while. We got back two hours later, they were still sitting there.
 
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